Yes it is – the £50 a week was being paid by the DWP via the Guaranteed Pension Credit award until it ceased.
We had an insurance policy that had matured for just over the debt value and was sat there waiting until April next year when the 5% penalty if it was paid off would expire.
Now that we have the cash we are using it to pay the interest and to top up our living expenses.
A bit ridiculous I know – when we cashed it in we had slightly more than we needed 7 months ago to pay off the mortgage. But if we did that then we would have been very short of money which is needed to live off. We would have been sat on property worth well over ¼ million but would have not been able to live.
Equity Release – yes I have looked at that. We had a quote off the web that would have given us just over £93,000 (the mortgage debt is £86,000). In taking that money we would have had to sign over the house to them which I say is worth just over ¼ million. That didn’t sound a good idea to me. The figures show that the debt doubles every 10 years. So after 20 years (I’ll be 88 and my wife 92) the amount that they would have wanted back would be £372,000 – meaning there would be nothing for the kids.
We might consider it later – see if we can stretch ten years before we do it – the debt then when I’m 88 would be £186,000 – a hell of a difference.
But as I have said I’m not thinking that far in the future – no point really – who knows how our health will be by then – we could be both in a care home!
Les. I contacted this lady on Mumsnet as they have a private messaging system. I asked her about my friend whose assessor was in complete agreement with her, about her inability to complete one activity during the assessment, and then went away and wrote do,thing completely different which drastically reduced the point score and left her one point short of the enhanced care rate. I was astonished at her reply. Basically, the main reason for her resignation was that before any of the assessors reports are submitted to the DWP an 'audit team' scrutinises them and where they feel the assessor has been too generous the report is handed back for the assessor to rewrite and lower the points. She says this happens on a regular basis, but I note that she doesn't say which provider she worked for. Her advice is that my friend's orginal report was probably subject to this process and this is the reason there was no mention of the original conversation and there appears to have been sudden change of mind. She confirmed that the 'audit teams have no part in the actual assessments and have never seen the claimants for whom they require the points score to be 'revised' and therefore have no knowledge of their actual ability. She didn't clarify whether these auditors have any medical expertise or whether the DWP are aware that this goes on, as this happens before the reports are submitted to the DWP. If the DWP ARE aware of it, it goes some way towards explaining why they are so reluctant to change any of their decisions at the reconsideration request stage.
If this is true, then it's easy to identify a pattern here. The assessor sees the claimant and writes the report. The audit team gets the score lowered, the report goes to DWP and the assessment provider has fulfilled their responsibility. The DWP render a decision based on the report giving a lower rate of benefit. The claimant asks for a reconsideration and is refused - benefit is saved and the DWP have fulfilled their responsibility. It is left to an independent tribunal to render a fair decision, as they answer to no one. The tribunal are picking up the slack from everyone else, as the DWP and assessment providers seemingly couldn't care less if the decision is fair or not. Pretty soon even the tribunals won't get to render a fair decision because the DWP are currently training up 86 presenting officers to try to stop the tribunals overturning as many decisions. The tax payer and the disabled people caught up in this farce are the losers - and no one seems to have a voice with which to complain. 'Great' Britain. More tea vicar ?
Thanks Pam
A very enlightning review.
Yes I was aware of this secondary 'audit team'. From what I was told a while ago it was set up on instructions from the DWP in order to make sure that what the assessor had written was robust and evidence backed. It is staffed by the assessing company but there is a direct link from the DWP decision maker to them.This was supposed to be for the DM to ask questions of them to ensure the accuracy of the report.
I am amazed that their brief is to try and reduce the points wherever possible - but this does not surprise me. Originally this 'audit' team was staffed by the DWP and ATOS for ESA claims that were at the Tribunal stage. Many ESA claims were awarded just days before the hearing when this team got involved in reviewing the cases. It was originally created to try to solve the ESA appeal backlogs that the Tribunals were suffering.
It now seems to have gone full circle and brought PIP into the mix.
In a way there is nothing wrong with having an 'audit' team which should be there to ensure that the quality of the assessors' reports are the best that they can be before the DWP get them. To find that they are now manipulating them is going in the wrong direction.
Maybe the answer is to simply ignore what a DM decides beit at the initial stage or the MR stage - everyone who thinks that their award/decision is wrong MUST appeal to the Tribunal. To not do so is playing into the hands of the government. That was my experience - every decison was wrong and every one was eventually changed just days before the hearing (DLA, ESA & IIDB).
And yes I am aware of these new prosecuting officers. Have you seen the job description? There is very little difference bewteen them and the American version - Assistant DA's.
Coming up against them for some is going to be trouble. And many PIP claimants will now decide not to appeal in the light of these 'heavyweights'.
And finally did you read that the DWP are pushing hard for their appeal cases to be the first to go digital? They are pushing that the oral hearings are done away with (as early as next year). In future all appeals will be dealt with by a single judge on written submissions and written evidence only. There may be some cases, just a few that SKYPE could also be used or the Judge may telephone the claimant.
If you read the job description for these 'prosecutors' emphasis is placed on writing submissions.
Hello everyone I am new to this group but am also soon due the dreaded thud on the doorstep of a form telling me I have to transfer from DLA to PIP.
This is very worrying for me and the family as yes I have primary progressive MS and epiplepy and ulcerated colitis and my main carer is my wife but I am also a person who wants to try and do things for himself and challenge myself which is what we as disabled people are meant to do (the old overcome any challenge as best we can attitude) but the distress all this causes does not help and so yes I am no longer going to push myself but just sit and wait but my wife has already asked CAPITA about making a recording of the assesment if it happens which we will do but if there are 2 tapes of the same assesment then surely things cannot be added or removed or am I living in hope...
Well thank all for listening ..
Hi Pike
First of all you seem to have the same outlook on life as I have - trying to never give in to what a disability brings to the table.
Giving in or giving up trying to find ways around the things you can no longer do with ease I find gives a sense of satisfaction despite the additional hurt it causes - nothing ventured, nothing gained.
For a start you will have to get permission for any recording of the PIP face to face assessment. You will have to comply with their rules and regulations regarding the type of equipment you use.
As for the two tapes, the one that you will hand over to CAPITA actually just gets 'filed away' for about 18 months then is destroyed. The DWP never have access to it and actually would not use it as evidence. At the end of the day the only purpose of a recording is for the claimant to have it to refer to it when and if the claim goes to appeal. It is very unlikely that you will be able to present to the Tribunal in any event. Treat it as a aid for you to write your submission, although a Tribunal is not particularly interested in what was said at the assessment.
It's however very useful if you want to use it if you want to make a complaint to CAPITA if you are not happy with the report they send to the DWP.
The assessment report is only an OPINION and NOT A STATEMENT OF FACT We all can have opinions which may be right or wrong. The same goes for CAPITA. They will always argue that despite what is said at an assessment their OPINION may well be that your body language or what you say or how you say it does not fit the claims you have made on the claim form.They may be of the OPINION that you are exaggerating your difficulties - they place more on what they say they observe than anything else.
Hi les,
On the subject of recording the assessment.
If it is so trivial, as far as dwp go, what would be the situation to covertly record the assessment for your own reference only as an aid to memory jogging after the event.
Not for any other use-would we be breaking any law?
Mike.
sorry it should say:
NOT giving in or giving up trying to find ways around the things you can no longer do with ease I find gives a sense of satisfaction despite the additional hurt it causes - nothing ventured, nothing gained
The law - No.
Breaking the DWP rules - certainly Yes.
If you are found or suspected of trying to record the assessment without the knowledge of the assessor you run the real risk that the assessment process will be brought to an end with the assessor sending back your file to the DWP stating that you have failed to co-operate.
For the DWP that will result in the claim that you have made being forcibly closed down.
The only other alternative is to employ someone that can take down everything that is said at the assessment in shorthand. Once transcribed you can then use the transcription for your own purposes only.
If however you have the shorthand writer swear an Affidavit that the contents of the transcription and the actual notes that were taken down, are a full an complete record of the assessment then that could be used in a complaint to the assessing company if you decide to go that route.
Demanding that the DWP listen to the authorised recording or look at transcribed notes will be refused.
The thing is Les when we are talking about how trying to get over or through the pain of things it is things that normal healthy people consider an everyday simple task and you would hope that any assesment done takes into account how things are, but if the staff are not properly trained in your disability or are forced to change the report then I would hope that a tape recording done in the correct way with permission should be proof because if I stated on a tape recording of the interview that I could no longer walk further than 200 meters and next week I was seen by the same person at the local disco dancing away they would use it.. I did apply for the job of stamp licker at my local post office but they have told me they now have self adhesive ones so that jobs gone
Hi les,
It's great isn't it.
Traffic wardens, police officers wear cameras to record their everyday life facing Joe public, no infringement of our rights??
CCTV record our every move in public to "protect" us. (If you have nothing to hide you shouldn't mind).
But, when it comes to people who have mental or physical, or both, difficulties, who struggle to remember things, no such help.
I would have thought that it would be simple enough to use the same equipment at PIP assessments for our aid, as they do when interviewing suspected criminals
at police stations.
Or are the dwp above the law of the land.
Mike.
That is a very very good point.
The DWP in common with most other government departments do not operate under the criminal law in these circumstances. If they did they would have to abide by P.A.C.E. when wanting to interview someone. Government departments work under the old Perjury law (unless there is a criminal aspect to the case) which conveniently does not require any similar safeguards to be put in place.
Under that law the claimant is not entitled to demand that a solicitor or responsible adult be present, the department (or it's agents) have the ultimate right to eject anybody out of the interview if the interviewer feels that it would be the right thing to do with no appeal allowed. Additionally, and this gets to your point, a recording of the interview does not need to be physically carried. It is sufficient for the interviewer to make notes of the proceedings. The person being interviewed would then be asked to sign the notes or simply to agree that they are correct.
From the DWP's point of view on this, it would be sufficient for the assessor to read back what notes he has taken down and ask the claimant if they accept them.
I have read about cases where it is reported by the assessor and after editing that the claiment walked upstairs.. but the claimant in this case lived in a bungalow so it really does seem to be that if you are lucky and you get a nice person to interview you and someone else in the department decides it is your lucky day and the wind is blowing in the right direction then you will get a favourable decision... and if its not then oh well you can always appeal and go through even more rubbish that in essence you dont need to... But if it was us who had lied surely the case would be stopped or we would possibly be liable to prosecution but it is ok and legal for them to do it and it seems to be happening more and more often hence why I will get permission for a recording. But would being recorded get the assesors back up straight away and put them on the defensive. Does anyone else in this group know if reports are changed even after recordings are made or if it is looked upon less favourably..