been doing some research after my dentist said I was in danger of loosing my bottom teeth due to gum erosion, (I don't have gum disease) so I investigated (Dr Google!) and found that nearly 60% of RA sufferers loose some teeth, the worse the RA the more teeth they loose. If this is related to a gum bacteria? Wouldn't antibiotics help? Is there a connection here that is being overlooked by the medical fraternity? So is RA triggered by the immune system battling an infection!? And has anyone taken the antibiotics ( minocycline or doxycycline) long term to see if it helped their RA. I think this might also be the 'Brown method' after the Dr who discovered the connection.
Dear Granny D I think so too there's got to be a cause for everything.
I substituted pharma antibiotics with colloidal silver, a natural antibiotic, and took that for six months, but it changed nothing.
I was given a 6 week course various antibiotics for sepsis approx. 6 months ago. I had to stop my RA meds (enbrel and methotrexate) at the onset of the infection and haven't taken any since because of the risk of sepsis recurring. During that time my RA was well controlled. A couple of weeks after I finished the antibiotics my RA returned with a venganceand and has gradually worsened since. I mentioned the a ntibiotic thing to my rheumatologist and she said that antibiotics have been known to suppress symptoms in some patients. She also told me that enbrel leaves the bodies system and loses its effect after approx. 2 weeks. Methortrexate can take several weeks. Several years ago when I was only taking methotrexate for my RA, I decided (under rheumy supervision) to try stopping it. After around 2 weeks my RA started giving me problems, within another week or so I was in serious trouble and ended up phoning rheumy helpline begging for a stereo jab, which thankfully gave relief after a day or two.
Can't be 100% sure that antibiotics controlled my RA, but it certainly appears that way.
I also have a bladder problem and suffer with recurring urinary tract infections - hence the sepsis. I asked my urologist about long term antibiotics to help avoid getting sepsis again, but he was not keen on the idea at all and didn't think it would help. Not sure why, but I suspect it may have been to do with certain types of bugs like e.coli becoming resistant to antibiotics to antibiotics.
Apologies for the repeat words in the above.
What is sepsis Tony? Do you know how many people get these complications with methotrexate or embrel etc
Thank you, I thought you might be able to take the antibiotics at the same time as the methotrexate. I have also understood that if you stop RA meds the RA comes back with a vengeance. Also wonder if you do set yourself up for antibiotic resistance? It is such a trial and error journey we are on. Wake up and assess what parts of your body are working today and what parts are going to ache. ❤️and strength to all.
Blood poisoning. Apparently it 's a major killer with a 1 in 3 chance of it being fatal. What happened was I had a UTI (see last paragraph in my above reply) which responded well to antibiotics. But a couple of weeks after the UTI cleared I woke up one morning bearly able to walk due to excruciating pain in my right hip. Was admitted to hospital and diagnosed with septic arthritis in hip joint and sepsis. Don't know all the details, but according to my orthopedic consultant the bug from the recent UTI got into my bloodstream and settled in my hip joint. It required two bouts of surgery to cut into my hip and clean out the infection. Scary times I can assure you!
Both my rheumy and ortopedic consultants said that enbrel (Biologic) played a significant roll in allowing the infection to enter my bloodstream because it is a powerful immune suppressent thus significantly weakening my immune system and significantly reducing its capabilities to combat infections. I was also on methotrexate,(DMARD) at the same time, which I imagine also played a part, but my consultants thought that enbrel was the main culprit. As previosly mentioned, I no loger take immune suppressants because of the higher risk of sepsis recurring.
If someone suffers with recurring infections as I do, then I don't think it wise to go on enbrel or probably any other biologics, but of course this is something they need discuss wiith their consultants. Apparently methotrexate is less risky than enbrel, but following my sepsis experience I have decided to completely stop taking immune suppressants of any type,.hence my RA has gone haywire and is giving me serious pain and mobility problems. My GP suggested in a round about way, though he did not want to commit him self, that I need to go on immune suppressants as my joints are getting seriosly damaged, and if complications occur again, then we'll cross that bridge when we come to it...talk about a catch 22 situation!! Because of the amount of pain I am in I have decided to start taking hydroxychloroquine, which is a weak drug and my rheumatologist said it is not an immune suppessor as such.
I was on enbrel for 3 months and it performed wonders ffor me. It's a downright shame that complications occured. Not sure how many folk have had similar complications from either drug, but if one does not suffer with recurring infections as I do, then I would think the chance of getting sepsis or the like is remote. If however someone gets something like a chest infection then it seems wise to stop immune suppressants until the infection has cleared, which I believe is common practice with enbrel but not always the case with methotrexate - some consultants do some don't.
Apologies for the long winded post but I think a detailed explanation was needed.
Because of my chronic bladder problem and recurring UTIs, I think my urologist is concerned that should I go on long term antibiotics then futrure UTIs will be more difficult to combat. I'm just guessing here but it makes sense as the e.coli bug infection I commonly get, has already become resistant to two possibly three types of antibiotic which used to work.
Antibiotic resistance, if it's not already, is becoming a serious problem and it's about time that governments and the drug companies get their heads together and come up with the finances for developing new antibiotics or dark times lie ahead.
Not being overly dramatic here as because of my condition have been paying attention to developments, or the lack of, in this field, so am just saying as it is.
Hi Granny
I am in the process of trying to convince my Gp and rheumy to prescibe me minocycline for my newly diagnosed Ra, I have refused so far to take any Dmards.
I have just finnished reading Dr Mcpherson Brown's book "The road back" and it proves Ra is from infection, amazing read !
There is also a website giving you all the information on Dr Browns antibiotic therapy plus a really good forum it's called "The road back foundation".
Minocycline can be taken with Methx but better without, and Minocycline does not build up resistance like other antibiotics and is usually taken for two years at a dose of 3 tablets a week.
Everthing I have read and people I have spoken to is positive, and lots of people are in remission after 2 years.
There people on this site have done this therapy and are in remission {look though the replys to my post}
I am determined to try Minocycline via the NHS or private as the side effects of whats on offer isn't a option.
Best wishes Pepper
Minocycline sounds interesting. I wonder if it would help in my case, as mentioned above, as I'm a bit of a difficult rarity, or so my rheumatologist keeps telling me. It could be the answer to both my RA and recurring UTIs. My rheumatologist suggested long term antbiotics and she also queried this with my urologist. His reply to both of us was that he did not think it would be helpful - not sure why, but as mentioned think it to do with antibiotic resisistance thus making future UTIs difficult to treat. If I'm understanding you correctly, minocycline does not have this effect? Is the NHS reuctant to adminster it and if so, do you know why?
I'm seriously thinking of asking my GP/consultants about minocycline.
Hi Tony
It looks like your UtIs and getting Ra must be conected due to long term chronic infection.
Minocycline is not like any other antibiotic, as that it does not build up a resistence.
I saw my Rheumy last week about taking Minocycline and she said she wouldn't prescribe it herself but will write to my GP stating that she is not opposed to my GP prescibing it to me.
When I asked her why not ? she said she thought it wasn't strong enough and Methx is best (i think not), as she thought Methx had very few side effects!!!!
I think you would have a good chance of being prescibed Mino by your Rheumy with abit of Mino information, which you can download a DR's information pack on "The road back foundation" site.
I think we are not being offered Mino because the drug companies would lose billions, and the NHS is bound by contracts to prescribe certain drugs, which don't address the cause, only the symptoms.
The book I have just read was a real eye opener, if you are interested in antibiotic therapy it is a must "THE NEW ARTHRITIS BREAKTHROUGH" by Henry Schamel.This book includes Dr Browns book "The road back".
Good luck
Thanks for that pepperpot, I'll check out "The Road Back" site.
Not sure my UTIs and RA are connected though as I've had RA for 13 years and UTIs for 21/2 years, but who knows.
Six months ago I stopped all my RA meds and was put on a 6 week course of antibiotics for sepsis, which seemed to very effectively control my RA, though they were very powerful antibiotics. My RA returned two weeks after I finished the antibiotics and has gradually worsened since, to such a degree that I'm fast approaching desperation due to constant pain, frequent flares and immobility...could bearly walk today because of bad pain in my right foot. Thanfully it's eased a bit now. After getting sepsis, which according to the docs originated from a UTI, I'm seriously concerned I'll get it again. So my main concern is that another UTI may do give me sepsis again, which I am at risk of apparently, hence I've stopped taking all immune suppressing meds. My rheumy seems to think that long term antibiotics could help keep UTIs away so she could then start me on mtx. I can't say I'm keen on starting DMARDs again, and as mentioned my urologist does not think it would help any. But if mino can help control both my RA and UTIs then I'd be one happy chappie. I don't see rheumy until january but should see my urologist before too long as I'm booked down for investagatory tests on my bladder. Will certainly ask about mino, just hope they are receptive and willing to look into it coz life certainly ain't much fun at the mo and will probably get worse if I don't find some form of effective treatment.
Thans again
Thank you I will read the 'road back' also I see you recommended 'the new arthritis break through' to tony. It is scary for me to come off mtx because I am barely coping on my 12.5 dose, higher doses upset my liver. I had a long bout of infection underneath an impacted wisdom tooth that flared up and settled down over several years until I saw a periodontist who sorted it out. Then PMR for 2 years which then followed into the RA diagnosis last year. I can't help thinking they are related.
They are I had PLR before ra which I've had 13 years. For the first and third year I had a steroid shot every few months then 2 years ago hydroxiqualiine which did nothing. Recently I've been taking prednisilone tab and when I stopped I was worse than I've ever been. When I was diagnosed they said my esr was massive I had the most aggressive ra. I believe mine is a streptococcus infection causing ra.
Tony I tottally believe streptococcus infection is the cause of my ra which I've had 13 years. Prior to that I had prostatitiis infection and I became anti biotic resistant. It took years through a special herbalist and naturopath to get my body to kill the infection but it didn't kill all of it and up came ra years later.
when I was first diagnosed I read a book on ra streptococcus acid diet program but it wasn't untill 5 years ago that I took up the challenge.
its not an Easy program I got 80% better in 8 months. You have to get 100% then do a futher 3 months all acid in the body has to be gone as it feeds the infection.
ive never taken ra drugs as is sounds crazy to suppress immune as we need it to resistance for everything. I did have the odd shot of steroids in the beginning for crises. Once I took least toxic hydroxiqualiine for 6 months more recently pred tablets for 3 months but that's it.
they said my joints were damaged 12 tears ago as I had the most aggressive type of ra.
Im now back on the diet this time I plan on doing the full measure I want this terrible disease gone for good.
I've had RA for 25 yrs and have just recently been put on the "Antibiotic Protocol (AP) Therapy" minocycline at my request. All I have researched on Dr.Brown's AP Therapy has been positive and I couldn't ignore it vs the other methods. It's only been a few months, but since I've had RA, the only teeth I've lost have been my back molars probably due to lack of thorough cleaning/flossing, calcium difficiency (menopause), and prednisone which is a definite negative factor for the bones & teeth. Although thinning, I still have all my other teeth, thank goodness!
My sister has RA, and has recently been hospitalised for an operation, they discovered she had an infection and couldn`t go ahead, they gave her Tetracyclin, (spelling?) intraveneously...she was pain free, whan she asked the consultant how can this be....he said it dampened down the immune syatem. She was operated on, and came out of hospital with another infection!....she had 4 lots of antibiotics and was pain free all that time....but now RA has returned with a vengence! At the time she wasn`t on any RA drugs at all. The Rgheumatolgist when told, wasn`t inerested 9no surprise there then) She is now starting Sulpalazine....we`re hoping it will help, but she says she has never felt so good as when on antibiotics!
Julia is the minocyclone working I've had ra 13 years and I'm sure it's caused by infection too.
Hi All
I believe my Ra is the result of long term infection due to my wisdom teeth.
Dr Brown confirms this, and taking medication which wipes out my immune system can't do anything to help my situation.