Lab results...

Welll the lab results came in the mail today.  .C.-Reactive Protein was 0.3

and the ESR was 7 

I'm taking 6mg of Pred. but still don't feel great.... especially with the fatigue, which can be very inconsistent.  Some mornings start out good and then by the afternoon I'm so beat it's crazy or the other way around.  Out of bed my legs and arms feel like they will fall off and are difficult to move and this can last all day. Occ. I still can experience some shoulder "achyness" and neck aches.  Also the tooth ache also comes and goes !!  I don't understand the inconsistent days of bad and not quite so bad.

  The only comment from the physician was "neither of which showed significant inflammation"  Not exactly sure what that means...I guess it's not like you are either pregnant or not !!!

  Hope everyone is having a tolerable weekend.

All the best,  judy

 

Judy, I'm on 10 mg and will be interested to hear what others say about your post.  You'd think your low readings would mean fewer aches and fatigue!!!

Well you know low numbers don't mean it's not PMR.  My lab results initially were low and didn't confirm PMR but clinically I had pain in hips, shoulders, neck, low back.... stiffness and pain in the morning and if I sat for an hour or so without moving.... But once the pain was under control the fatigue was and still is the biggest challenge for me.  I really can't stand not being able to move and walk the way I used to.... but I know things could be worse...

I had my follow up appointment on Thursday of this week. I couldn't believe it when he told me everything was in normal range! My esr was 9 , I'm not sure what crp was. He,said the labs are usually pretty accurate in polymyalgia rheumatic.,I told him I tried leftover Prednisone at home and  improved ,he said prednisone makes a lot of things better ! I'm now being tested for Lymes. I still have pain in bilateral shoulders ( rotator cuff tear side and non tear side), hips, front of hips, and back of knees . People I speak to seem to think i should Pursue problems with thyroid and quitting levothyroxine "cold  turkey". Any thoughts on this would be appreciated!

Try to be patient - easy to say, hard to do - I'm stuck at 4mgs

after l8 months, just tried 3mgs for two days but am far more

comfortable with 4mgs. just for now.  At 6mgs. I had exactly

the same problems but it really does improve, be kind to yourself

rest and do whatever it takes to be comfortable, I find a good hot

shower on my shoulders and back in the morning with 4mgs of pred.

sets me up for a good day, still feel fatigued but there are many worse

off than I so I'm thankful.  Love to all.

I have a bit of a background in industrial processes. One of the early lessons is about variation. Everything has natural variation. It goes up and down. But generally, on average, its stable. Even measuring the same thing many times gives different results. But, on average, we get a kg of butter every time. Then things go wrong, the measurements are out of whack. Either a step change or a one off or increased variation, or a trend up/down.

With my hypothyroidism my thyroid began to produce less than asked for. I knew because my energy levels were so low something had to be wrong. Take the same amount of thyroxine (the right handed version but it makes no difference) every day, my energy levels return to normal, the TSH in my blood returns to normal. I'm stable. Nice, because the first step in fixing an industrial process is always to get back to stable. Lucky with thyroid because the natural variation is pretty much the same now as before the problem arose. And no side effects.

With PMR and Pred there seems to be much more natural variation. I'm stable, on average. But day to day I'm a bit up and down. Much more so than pre-PMR. I can't do anything about that. Manage my day around it.

I take the same amount of pred every day at the same time, with the same amount of yoghurt, using the same spoon, so it must be something else that causes the variation in stiffness, pain and energy. Probably the PMR. And its not only variation in the symptoms I had yesterday, its occasionally new and scary things. But generally, on average, they get worse and better, up and down, arrive and go away.

There is light at the end of the tunnel though. There's a trend. Slowly and inexorably over a long period the symptoms subside a bit and I can reduce the pred. A trend that is there in the long term but masked by the much greater daily up and down variation. So the trick is to reduce the pred as the symptoms allow, not reducing too fast so stability is lost.

A flare is "just" a loss of stability. A step change. So we take some remedial action. Maybe more pred for a time. With the aim of getting back to stable. First stable, then reduce the pred.

Changing anything in a process has flow on effects. If a process is stable then the preferred approach is to change only one thing at a time and observe. If its unstable then first stabilise. Its also typically an exercise in frustration trying to improve an unstable process. First make it stable, then reduce the variation, then improve it.

The hard part in PMR seems to be the diagnosis. There I've been lucky. Three (Aus) GPs, two who I know well, all happy with the diagnosis, not a Rheumy in sight, and all happy with the not very prescriptive "reduce the pred slowly". A pleasure when one of them said "its your disease". Though I'm reasonably certain they don't perceive me as an industrial process! Part of the luck was perhaps a sense of how Doctors diagnose and the information they need.

Nothing new in the above, just another way of looking at the journey.

Basically though, I'm lazy. I have a few well worn, well tried, universally applicable concepts. Patterns if you like. I often here "the devil is in the detail" but rarely do I hear the (for me) important "the answer is in the concept". Just some of my two bits about being holistic.

I have been taking 4 1/2 mgs for almost 12 months, unsuccessfully trying to reduce to 4 many times. However lately I've sensed something has improved so I'm very cautiously using Eileens slow method to reduce by 0.5 mg. So far it's been very good. 

Fatigue is also my worst symptom and after 2 1/2 years, I almost can't remember what it felt like to not be tired all day.  The only thing I have found that helps is to get some kind of "easy" exercise such as walking, gardening, light house cleaning.....and I'm just getting ready to try short bike rides.  

I see above you tried reducing by 1 mg but at our low doses that is a pretty large amount - 25%.   But perhaps you are on coated Pred and can't cut them in half.

Hey Judygirl,

  I guess I'll stick at 6mg for awhile.  I really have to hold myself back to not reduce !!! 

Thanks for your thoughts.  I'll try to be patient.... 

Hard for people to believe you're feeling like your arms and legs don't want to move cause they can't really SEE anything. 

All the best !

Thanks for your thoughts , Julian.....

The journey...

Stability....

Variation..

Can't see the light at the end of the tunnel YET !  But I'll keep looking... I guess I don't have a choice, do I ? 

thanks for your thoughts.... all the best to you .... Be good to yourself .

you do have a choice,

but I wouldn't recommend stopping looking. Its there. Be absolutely certain of that.

I've just stopped for a rest after drilling three miserable holes in a bit of steel. But then I couldn't have drilled any a year ago.

And besides which, I suspect that believing there's an end to this is part of getting through today.

How does one eat a chocolate elephant? ....... One bite at a time. .... And the bites vary a bit.

Back to the drill .... three more holes to go ..... I'll bet they aren't all the same size when I've finished ...... then I get to have a long hot shower and a nana nap.

Get well.

I found pre pred that involuntary screaming gets their attention! rolleyes

I really started laughing when I saw your post. I tried pred 2 1/2 yrs ago when the dr diagnosed me. I started at 10mg and the dr weened me off as fast as he could (Im diabetic and my sugars soared!!!) so now I live with no pred, no cortisone, just pain!. The involuntary screaming happens so often and so out of the blue I hate going out any where. Somehow I thought i was the only one with involuntary screams...nobody I know knows anything about PMR (LOL???) not really, but thank you for the laugh. Feel good.

I like the "involuntary screaming"!😄😄   Would be interesting in the local supermarket.  How about us trying it in our doctor's and rheumies practices?

Hello judy, has your Dr suggested an adrenal test? Because it sounds as though with this extreme fatigue maybe they are not working correctly and therefore with only 6mgs of steriods your body is suffering a shortage. That's just one suggestion.

as for the aches and pains, think about what you did (physical things that is) the previous day. I have definately noticed that when I garden, even light gardening my arms and neck the following day ache abit. I have put this down to the fact that I've been on preds for 1.8 years and although I'm now down to 8.5 my body has experienced muscle wastage due to the preds. So I really need to strengthen my muscles slowly. My legs are fine as I use them on my walks daily so those muscles are being strengthened daily, but arms that don't get as much exercise until like me now it's summer and I'm gardening have suffered and they need to be re strengthened. Good luck, christina 

He may think labs are usually pretty accurate - patient experience suggests otherwise, but that's nothing new! If he is able to rule out other things and if he has not found another answer I hope he will revisit his opinion. I and a couple of medics heavily involved in research think that PMR should be renamed as "steroid-responsive polymyalgic syndrome". PMR is just the description of the symptoms - many painful muscles -  and if a low dose of pred provides a better quality of life then that should not be ruled out.

I don't understand why you quit taking the levothyroxine - and it COULD account for some of the problems. 

No, no - in my 5 years with PMR and no pred there were many sharp intakes of breath and not very muffled shrieks as I had to move. Getting out of a car after move than a 10 minute drive was excruciating - especially if there wasn't a parking space at the end of a row so I could open the door to get out easily (all things are relative!).

"the dr weened me off as fast as he could" - but you CAN'T dictate the reduction process. I realise the BS problems but there are other ways of managing that too to make it less of a problem.

And tomorrow you'll probably have a less good day?

Because that is the usual reason: on a good day you unconsciously do a bit more and your body then needs a less good day to recover a bit. 

Your industrial analogy is so good - I've tried to explain it in the past like that. The trouble is, we're scientists and appreciate the limitations of reproducibility and stuff. I worked in the medical labs. We were taught about the variations and the real meaning of "normal ranges" and "outliers" in the medical world. Over the years (that was in fairly early days of biochemical medicine) that has been pushed to one side and now medics have this concept that the figures are absolute. NO,NO,NO! Only 95% (at best) are included in those normal ranges. And they are the healthier (it is hoped) population. We are, by definition, not part of it.

I "forgot" in a Tesco Lotus in Thailand. First stop after Myanmar. We were running short of some essentials. They'd deliberately put them on the top shelf and Ali is shorter than I ...... collective reaction was a bit like the selective deafness us meagre males succumb to in the presence of new born screaming babies.

4 months of pain was too long without pred. I struggle with the idea of 2 1/2 years.

Some variety of stubborn pride kept me trying to put my own t-shirt on each morning. A different contortionist act every day, with varying results, and screams. "Don't worry, just putting my t-shirt on" sounded a bit weak .....

The autoimmune part of the disease is almost certainly the reason for the intolerance of your muscles of acute exercise. It is thought to be very likely to be something to do with the mitochondria - the power-houses of the cells. The autoimmune bit probably does wax and wane - it is even possible it went into remission briefly but we were on pred and didn't notice. That would fit with the 25% who manage to get off pred quickly but then relapse - they hit a good run and would have been fine longer term on a very low dose but the good run tried a home run which succeeded for a while. Quite a few people get down to 1mg, stop and in weeks the symptoms are back.

Until the underlying autoimmune bit is in remission the fatigue will remain to some extent and as I've just said to Julian - on our better days we do that bit too much and the better day or two is followed by a worse day or three...

Is it good or bad to be one of the 5% 'not normal' human beings??  

 I suppose we should be honoured😏😏