Monitoring your PMR journey

I look like a newbie to this site but I have had PMR since 2007 – with two major flares both times when I have managed to get down to 2mgs steroids.  I have had to re- register for this site( was Gillb) as I couldn’t manage to change my e mail address – don’t know whether technology frustrates me more than PMR – but oh yes I do – definitely PMR!!

At a regular 6 monthly rheum appt in January this year, the Dr asked me to increase my steroids from 2mg to 3 mg and then have another blood test after two weeks, as he had noted that my CRP was creeping up again (16 at that stage).  He showed me a graph indicating the gradual rise and the fact that this had happened back in 2014 when I had a previous flare.  I must admit I was most impressed by his approach. At the time I was feeling great -was walking 1/2hour daily.  I was feeling good in myself – had lost the fat jaw line, my hair was looking healthy and was maintaining some sort of style.  I was able to do all I wanted to – we had had a good Christmas with lots of family activities.  I had noticed that I was a bit slow to wake up and get going in the mornings but I had no reason to rush – I have learnt over the years to pace myself and be good to myself!! So I was quite taken aback by the indication that things might not be as good as I was feeling.  Unfortunately I never made it to the two week blood test!  A week and a half later I experienced an evening when I felt extreme cold and felt terrible.  I went to bed with two duvets and blanket and slept 12 hours – I limped around the next couple of days – not feeling quite right but nothing I could put my finger on – was I sickening for flu – I couldn’t believe it was PMR related – I didn’t have any stiffness exactly or pain.  That is until after the weekend when it hit me hard – right back to full PMR – pain and stiffness across my scapulas and neck, couldn’t put one foot infront of the other etc. etc. etc.  I managed to get a blood test right  away and an emergency GP appt who increased my steroids to 10mgs.   By the next day I couldn’t even walk across the bedroom, or get down the stairs.  Two days later I was in so much pain the GP increased the steroids again to 20mgs and oh for relief again -  with adequate pain relief and the steroid increase I am finally on the mend again!!

The reason for this discussion is to ask how you all monitor how you are feeling?  Do you have any indication if a flare up is imminent?  I have discussed this with my family who agree I was really good before this flare BUT I had noticed increased morning lethargy – just didn’t relate it to PMR. I don’t have any real stiffness in the mornings once the steroids are suppressing the inflammation so I can’t monitor increased stiffness.  At present I am keeping a score out of 10 at bed time, as to how I am feeling. It depends on the time of day when I note the score as one day I was feeling really good and went to the shops and then had to come home and sleep as felt so awful -  I don’t need to spell it out to you all – was just wondering if anyone had any great way of actually taking notice of how they were progressing in their recovery.  I have always reduced on the dead slow method and try not to think too much re the amount of steroids I am taking, as I feel one can get so hooked up on medication and wondering if I should be reducing more quickly or more slowly.  I know I am in for discussion with the rheumatologist as to whether I should go on to methotrexate this time of reducing, but have held off this discussion until the brain fog has gone and I am on way down again!  I am meantime taking note of all your comments.  Thanks for all your input to this forum. 

Hello

There are others on this forum with lots of experience and as I am relatively new to this myself & I wouldn't pretend to have any 'right' answers but I am sure you will get lots of very useful responses very soon. But from the point of view of someone yet to (probably) take a long journey like yourself let me tell you this post will be one I recall. It must feel very disheartening after such great 'progress' to have to deal with all this again - but from what I have learned here I am sure you will get back on top of things and taper down again over time. This seems to be the pattern - one step forward and maybe one or two backwards for a wee while at least. Regarding methotrexate there seems to be quite a bit of contention here and elsewhere about its efficacy for PMR cf. pred - but again others will comment on that.

So just to say take heart !- things will improve I'm sure and in the end 'monitoring' is a necessary part of that.

How long since 2007 have you been off pred. Well for that matter how long did it take you to get off of it the first time?

Hi Gillb!! Welcome back!

You sound like me - I've had had PMR for 13 years now - and have had 3 (I think) flares, but all very different. Originally PMR crept up on me slowly, first it was difficult to do a step class or step-ups in the gym, I couldn't get onto the step properly. I was more easily tired after a class - and put it down to being unfit. Finally I couldn't do more than about a minute on the crosstrainer without horrendous thigh muscle pain. The flares seemed to "happen"  although one was due to dodgy pred - one batch of 5mg tablets didn't work, the 2.5mg tablets did, go figure, so effectively dropping the dose too fast and taking new pred worked. Then the flare was due to being on Medrol which, for some reason, didn't work for me, all side effects, no result with the PMR.

The last flare though happened overnight. I'd been down to below 5mg but was tired at 4mg and it was worse at 3.5mg so I assumed my adrenal glands were not awake. At 5mg I felt good again - and then from one day to the next I couldn't walk up the slope to the village without being totally out of breath and dizzy. Three weeks later the PMR pains started in my hips. Back to 15mg, relief all round - but it lasted for a few months before I could get any lower than 13mg without the breathlessness returning. Now I'm back to 7mg and - so far - OK. I can't say anything about ESR/CRP - mine have never been elevated, even when I couldn't move!

It is good to hear about a rheumy who does monitor and identifies a pattern - we've said for years that if the ESR/CRP start to creep up it is probably a point to be looking more closely because it could be a sign the inflammation is there at a level that will soon cause symptoms again. Sometimes it is because the dose is just slightly too low to combat all the inflammation each morning and the drip drip of the leftover inflammation eventually fills the bucket and spills over. 

I had the bisphosphonate discussion yesterday - for the first time since I was diagnosed when after 4 doses I declined politely. My bone density has barely changed but she wanted to "consider whether you need something". I told her she needn't spend time on it, I would refuse thank you very much. I'm waiting for someone to start the methotrexate idscussion. It will get the same answer.

There is evidence in the literature, derived from a study, that 1) one third of patients still require pred after 6 years and 2) while taking mtx does lead to a reduction in the amount of pred a patient takes, despite the addition of another layer of side effects and lifestyle limitations it is not matched by a reduction in pred-associated side effects. It seems funny how they are delighted to quote this paper as evidence mtx helps - but won't acknowledge the other two facts! This is the paper:

Long-term follow-up of polymyalgia rheumatica patients treated with methotrexate and steroids M.A. Cimmino , C, Salvarani et al

and if you google it you will find a pdf version where you can read it all/print it off if you are so inclined.

I wonder if your PMR was always just ticking over since you only ever got to 2mg or whether you COULD have got off altogether? There are several people who have got to just 1 or 2mg and been told it has gone, stop the pred, and then it has reappeared within a few months. And a few people who have got off pred for a few years - and then back it came but wearing a totally different overcoat. I don't think mine has ever really "gone" but without stopping the pred altogether you can't tell. Oh for a REAL test for PMR!

 

I just wanted to add a note as far as eyesight is concerned. I have had pretty much the same script for my glasses for the last 5 years until I had my yearly check up yesterday.

There was a cataract duly noted last May. The eye surgeon said it has a while to go before he recommend surgery.

Yesterday I could not read any letters at all. The optometrist said my cataract has to be removed as soon as possible. He went on to tell me that Prednisone unfortunately increases the activity of the cataract.

So, just another side affect of Pred.

Jean

Interesting hearing of CRP as a leading indicator rather than trailing. Nice work.

I don't know what my baseline CRP etc. were at pmr diagnosis and haven't taken much notice since.

I'm reasonably used to subjective as well as objective measures for monitoring industrial processes so apply the same principles.

I think in terms of stability. If I'm stable that's fine. Best indicator at present is my hands. If they become a bit more painful I usually also get twinges in my upper arms, where it all started. But one swallow doesn't make a summer. I'm interested in trends.

If I overdo things, as I did a few days ago hauling on spanners, I notice the effect in my hands. Slow down a bit and the hands return to normal over a few days. Its like a saw tooth - rapid deterioration, slow recovery.

Last October my hands didn't recover, the trend was more pain, and more painful arms each day. I was a bit slow to increase the pred. I'm still not back to the 3.5 mg/day pred I was on, down to 4.5 mg/day last week.

What I look for has changed with time. At one stage it was as simple as what time I felt like getting out of bed. Earlier I was happier. Later unhappier. More or less same time each day equals stable. Again, looking for trends.

Occasionally I've had step change. A day arrived when I felt I could walk relatively long distance up and down hills. A negative step change a couple of years ago was when one lower leg swelled. Another was headache changed.

If I was really serious, or overly concerned, I'd give things a value of, say, 0 to 10, and plot on a chart.

I did that for my weight. It went up and down by more than a kg each day, but the trend was downward at about 200 gm per day. The only way I could tell I was losing weight was to plot a chart.

But generally I'm comfortable with subjective measures as indication.

For those with statistical quality control experience I think in terms of special causes and common causes of variation. If I'm stable I'm happy, if not what's the cause? I don't know why medical practitioners don't apply the techniques, there's been a few papers suggesting it.

"I don't know why medical practitioners don't apply the techniques, there's been a few papers suggesting it."

If it isn't their field, they won't have looked at it. And statisitics scares them silly. They get in the departmental specialist to help them design studies - and often end up identifying a p value that statistically is meaningful but in context, probably wasn't...

my conversations with GP go along the lines of "your cholesterol is high" to which I ask "is it increasing, decreasing, or stable?".

I suspect that the concept of stability and trends is more applicable to chronic conditions than acute. As the proportion of chronic conditions to acute increases so will the need to understand stability and trends in simple statistical terms.

A large part of medicine seems to be driven by single data points, spot checks, rather than a more methodical approach - but I sense it changing, however slowly, driven by the mix of conditions being treated.

I have a binder that I fill with lined school paper that is my PMR journal. I find this is invaluable. 

Each day I jot down anything noteworthy, such as aches, fatigue, unusual activity that day (today I went cross country skiing for the first time so that will be noted!)

Each day I give myself s number grade grade for how I feel.  This is a quick reference for spotting periods where I feel pretty good and I can also spot downward trends and read back to see if anything triggered it, such as overdoing or eating dairy. 

As losing weight has been an issue for me I also note that every few days and it's been interesting to see that as my prednisone goes down my weight goes up. 

Im starting my 5th year of PMR and am currently reducing to 3 1/2 mgs. 

Reinventing the wheel really...