Reducing pred: dead slow and nearly stop method

Copied from Eileen's post in another discussion.

A group of us worked out reduction schemes individually that have allowed us to reduce far further than ever before but they are all basically the same - and they were based on a scheme a Swedish gentleman worked out when he simply couldn't get below 3mg without pain. Img at that level is 33%, 1/2mg is 17% - way above the 10% that has been recommended for years. So he used table to see the daily doses and took the new dose on one day, old dose for a few days and then proceeded by repeating that and then reducing the number of days of old dose - until he got to everyday new dose. It worked, he got off pred and has been off pred for at least 3 years (it could be longer). Something similar to mine is being tried by a consultant rheumatologist in the north of England and he too finds it works for every single patient he has given it to. As it did for several ladies beforehand.

My reductions are VERY slow. I use the following pattern to reduce each 1mg:

1 day new dose, 6 days old dose

1 day new dose, 5 days old dose

1 day new dose, 4 days old dose

1 day new dose, 3 days old dose

1 day new dose, 2 days old dose

1 day new dose, 1 day old dose

1 day old dose, 2 days new dose

1 day old dose, 3 days new dose

1 day old dose, 4 days new dose

1 day old dose, 5 days new dose

1 day old dose, 6 days new dose

By that stage if I feel OK I feel safe to go all new dose. I suppose you might be OK starting and stopping at "1 day new, 4 days old" but I was terribly sensitive to steroid withdrawal pain so I err on the safe side. Once you get to the "everyday new dose" - if you feel OK you can start on the next reduction, no real need to spend a month at the new dose.

This avoids steroid withdrawal pain - which is so similar to PMR pain that you often can't tell which is which and some of us suspect that many flares are NOT the PMR returning but problems with steroid withdrawal. Using a scheme like this also means you can stop immediately if you have any problems - you might be fine at one day old dose, 2 days new (lower) dose but not at a 3 day gap - but you have dropped your dose a lot and that is the idea. It also isn't as slow as you would think - you can reduce at a rate of about 1mg/month on a continual basis.

The Bristol group start new patients with PMR with 6 weeks 15mg, 6 weeks at 12.5mg and then a year at 10mg before continuing the reduction and that achieves a far lower rate of flare (20% instead of 60%) and I suspect their flares then come below 10mg as they then do the 1mg at a time reduction. Just below 10mg is a common dose for people to get stuck at - and I (and others) believe it is because even 10% drops are too much for many patients. These patients are then labelled as "steroid resistant" or told they need methotrexate to help them reduce but we have seen this slow reduction work for those patients too. We believe that methotrexate (MTX) works for patients who have late onset rheumatoid arthritis (LORA) or LORA and PMR together. Very few patients get off pred altogether when taking the MTX - those who do are probably the mis-diagnosed LORA patients - or another arthritis that responds to MTX."

Further comment from Eileen in original discussion:

Can I add a codicil to the very slow reduction plan in the above post:

When you are at doses below 5mg it is a good idea to rest at each new dose for a month at least before trying the next reduction. At this point you risk overshooting the dose that is controlling the inflammation so waiting a short time to see if symptoms reappear is helpful. If you just continue there is a possibility that you get to very slightly below the "right dose" and inflammation will start to reappear very slowly. The blood tests will lag even further behind the dose reduction - there must be enough inflammation to increases the proteins being measured for the blood tests to rise.

Someone has asked this question:

"I'm at 7mg going down to 6mg, and I'm at the point where I'm starting to shift from more 6mg than 7mg, but I can tell the pain is returning. So...do I jump up big to say 10mg, or try 7mg or 8mg? I hate the very idea of going up at all, but it is what it is."

My reply was:

No - you go back to the last dose that worked well immediately and stop the reduction. This isn't a "flare", this is your body telling you that you have got to the dose you are looking for: the LOWEST DOSE THAT MANAGES THE SYMPTOMS. It doesn't mean you won't get lower, it just means not yet. However slowly you reduce, whatever scheme you use, you will not get below that dose without a return of symptoms because of left-over inflammation that hasn't been removed by the amount of pred you took. It is if you ignore these warnings that you will allow a build-up of the inflammation to the stage where you will have a flare on your hands.

To comment on something someone else said - you have differentiated between steroid withdrawal and a return of symptoms by using DSNS. If you were going to suffer with steroid withdrawal you will notice it the first day you use the new lower dose. That is the idea of DSNS - you go back to the dose your body is happy at for a few days and then show the new dose to your body again. For me it usually takes about 3 times for my body to accept the new lower dose and stop complaining.

Thank you for putting this on here.  I have copied and pasted it to an e-mail to myself.  

VERY helpful, thank you.

 

Thanks Alan

We do issue them free of charge if patiients contact us by looking on the net for PMR GCAuk North East Support.

To date we have distributed over  nearly 200 and counting.

Some GPs and Consultants have agreed to there use when Patients have taken them and discussed both plans.  So far so good.

 

I think there should be an award for doctors who are not ashamed to learn from their patients.

Cramps in my legs in my hamstrings have woken me up 230 am. Once that subsided it move to the side of my leg and i couldnt straighten them for at least 3-4 minutes. Thats the longest ive had to endure any sort of cramps before!! Ive recently four days ago reduced my prednisone from 20 mgs to 16mgs . Does anybody think this is prednisone related or unrelated? Ive had pmr for only 4 months and im a 54 yr old male.I started back at work 11 days ago at my occupation as a knifehand at the meatworks. Was on 20 mgs for around 3 months . Looking forward to your replies thank you 👍👍

Thank you!  An important reminder.  I printed out the schedule of reduction, and will try to follow it to a T.

Hi Maurice, I can only say what I feel. I also get calf muscle pain, am reducing. I take a mega magnesium tablet just before bed and it help me big time. Magnesium relaxes the muscle and gives great rest for me>

Good luck Dea 

Thank you dea i will try that thanks again

I have GCA, is it different for this disease then PMR as far as tapering? 

You can use the plans as well for reduction.

People with PMR are looking and following their symptoms and feelings, you look out for yours.

GCA only 5 years and now in remission going on 6 years.

I'm glad your in remission. Five years of GCA disease? I was hoping from what I read it would be a year or two. Thanks for replying. 

I want to copy n paste this but my iPad is not cooperating. . Can you send this to my email or do you have any other ideas how I can save your tapering?

Send a Pm with your email address and it will be sent to you.

Sorry Harriet, I only know about 4 people who have gone into remission earlier.   But do not despair, we only get to hear about the people with problems.

Wow! Looks like a great plan! Now if I could just get prednisone in 1mg doses, that would be great!

May need to have your potassum checked

Wahhhh Thx ! Simple and beautiful.

Gday every body.........This is my first first post even though i have had PMR for about 14 years........took my doc ages to find my problem......i couldnt dress my self etc.......was dehabilatating. Was heaven i when first went onto prednisone..yeah..

I have been trying to get of pred for years..but kept getting flare ups......

Have tried Methotrexate and half a dozen others but all made me sick in the 

stomach..........My only success so far was to reduce the dose of pred by one

quarter mg per month.......if i had a flare i would up the dose by 2 mg for

a few days then start again ....it has taken me a couple of years ..but am now

down to 4 mg daily and things are going good..........i dont think you can come

off pred till PMR is leaving you....regardless of what you are taking.........

But reducing the dose super slow is (in my opinion) the way to go........

There appears to be no magic bullet...........

Billy 49454

PS........i am taking Fozamax and it appears that is keeping my bone

density in good shape while taking Prednisone...........

....................Billy...................