Had such an unpleasant experience with my last smear test that im now two years over due , five years since i had my last one, nurse was left handed, does that, should that make much difference? she said she couldnt find my cervix, and it was very painfull. never before have i found it like this in all the previous years. i know its silly and i should have one seeing im post menapausal but i am very reluctant to make an appointment.
Susan, chances are you're having unnecessary pap testing. MOST women are HPV- and cannot benefit from pap testing, but can be harmed by false positives, excess biopsies and over-treatment. (which is fairly common)
Only about 5% of women aged 30 to 60 are HPV+, these are the only women who should be offered a 5 yearly pap test. (until they clear the virus)
This is the new evidence backed Dutch program, no population pap testing, a cruel burden for HPV- women, and instead women will be offered 5 HPV primary tests at ages 30,35,40,50 and 60 OR women can self test with the Delphi Screener...and ONLY the roughly 5% who are HPV+ will be offered a 5 yearly pap test. This will save more lives and takes most women OUT of pap testing and harms way. Many post menopausal women find pap testing intolerable, painful, may cause bleeding and even the position can be difficult if you have arthritis etc.
Fact is MOST older women are HPV- and having unnecessary pap testing.
Heads should roll, so many women have been left worried and harmed by this testing. Informed consent is supposed to be a legal right, yet has been ignored in women's cancer screening.
You can source HPV self testing online or ask your doctor for advice on HPV self testing, but you'll have to be firm, doctors get target payments for pap testing. You might have to doctor shop to find someone respectful. You can also, order kits online. I'm 56 and don't have pap tests, it concerns me that so many women are having unnecessary pap testing, excess biopsies and potentially harmful over-treatment. This damage is mostly avoidable.
Couldn't agree more with Eliz52.
Have your previous tests all been negative? If so, your odds of getting cervical cancer are extremely, extremely remote. You need to test positive to the HPV virus to even run a remote risk of getting cervical cancer. Unfortunately the NHS does not offer HPV testing, and the tests are only available privately for about £45. This involves yourself taking a swab with a long Q-tip and sending it off to a lab. You get the results back in a few days. Urine tests for HPV have been successful in development, but we still aren't seeing them being made available to women yet, who are expected to roll up to the painful old test without question. The Netherlands is offering HPV self-testing kits for free from 2016, and there will be no need to roll up for a smear test if the result comes back negative. Australia has also announced it will switch to HPV testing in 2016. I think our NHS is keeping this information from British women out of fear many will hold back until the new test comes out. You are not silly at all, but wise and sensible to question a procedure, which causes you so much pain. If you are low risk, you may wish to wait for a better test to come along. It is your right to be informed.
Thanks eliz52, i wasnt aware of this, its true about being harmed too, i had so much pressure put on the entrance to my uretha last time that i ended up with urithitis due to brusing. im 64 next birthday so will not be bothering to have any more unless symptoms persuade me otherwise.
Thanks eliz52 didnt realise all these facts, i dony feel so guilty now about avoiding this painfull procedure
Thanks informed for that info too, yes all my smears have been negative for the last 40 odd years. i was under the impression that our chances of developing nasty things increased after the menapause, our sons girlfriend who is a nurse said aww you should have it done considering your age. Have made a note of the link thanks
Susan,
Your son's GF is right, the likelihood of lots of things increases as we age, but cervical cancer is different, your risk comes down to whether you're HPV+ or HPV- (and aged 30 to 60)
Evidence based programs found in the Netherlands and Finland don't offer pap testing before age 30 (and note the Finnish program goes back to the 1960s so this is not new evidence) and testing usuallly stops at age 60. (sometimes earlier)
Now HPV primary testing and HPV self testing will take most women out of pap testing and many women will test for HPV only once or twice, those HPV- and no longer sexually active or confidently monogamous.
You should know also, that a false positive pap test result is more likely when you're post menopausal and it can be difficult to get a decent sample. So these poor women often endure re-testing or an unnecessary colposcopy or biopsy.
It's a disgrace that women are not treated as individuals, that informed consent is ignored along with the evidence.
So many women go through hell with this testing and it's all so unnecessary.
Needless to say a program that would take 95% of women out of pap testing would not be welcome by pathology companies, doctors etc. who all make milllions from this testing, excess biopsies and over-treatment.
Every woman should have the option of HPV self-testing, it's easy and reliable and we should receive evidence based information. I note some UK doctors state HPV- women should still have pap testing, that's not a statement backed by the evidence. HPV- women cannot benefit from pap testing, but can be harmed.
Good luck...hope this information eases your mind.
Hi To Susan and all women out there. Because doctors are making a fortune out of smear testing (The whole industry in England is now worth 3billion!!!!!!! in America it is 17billion!!!!) they are not telling you about the alternatives. A simple urine test has been available for the past 10 years which will twll you once and for all if you have the HPV virus. If you have it no amount of smears will tell you if you have cancer. It is impossible. What you need to demand!!! yes demand is the Delphi home testing kit. I assume most women know where there cervix is. one wipe and post the sample off in the supplied special envelope to your nearest cytology lab. Come on sisters wake up!!! Doctors will never change unless you start demanding your rights as a woman. Smears are an outdated form of testing but the doctor will never tell you this becasue he gets about 200 per patient if reaches target of about 80%
You are spot on, Linda. GPs get about £3,000 if they can hit the 80% screening target, nevermind how many HPV negative women they hurt, bully or pack off to colposcopy in the process. This conflict of interest should be widely disclosed to all women going for screening, but it is kept well hidden. They don't want women to know that what they are going through with this test, could be simply replaced with a home self-test HPV kit. A variety of them are now online. HPV negative women have no chance of cervical cancer, and therefore a smear test is futile in these cases. It's all about making money, keeping women in the dark about risks, tabloid newspapers selling scare stories and attempting to frighten the wits out of women, so that they will flock to these screening programmes out of guilt and desperation. These programmes and the charities, which support them peddle blind fear and ignorance rather than helpful balanced information. It is time that the truth came out.
The other shocking fact is that 95% of women aged 30 to 60 WOULD test HPV- if you gave them the opportunity to test and the right information so they understood the significance of being HPV-
The misinformation given to women means advances often end up being harmful/excess, we see the Americans using both the pap and HPV test on women over the age of 30, using both tests leads to the most over-investigation for no additional benefit to women, but of course, it leads to even higher profits for vested interests.
I believe women are being used in the worst possible way to make big profits for vested interests.
In the UK if women use a HPV self test they're often told they still need pap tests, rubbish. HPV- women cannot benefit from pap testing, they know that (or should know that) but want to keep all women in the program, they're protecting the program, not women. It's telling and concerning when pap testing HPV- women can do no more than expose them to risk.
It's a very serious matter, it has shocked me for a long time now, that the medical profession and others would treat women like this, the cervix is now the centre of a huge and highly profitable business model, it has nothing to do with healthcare, the way it's practised, it's harmful.
Also, we should not be doing pap or HPV testing on women under 30, we should protect them and their cervix. Long standing evidence shows this group produce the most false positives and we know where that can lead, and we also, know that pap testing young women does not prevent the super rare cervical cancer that occurs in young women.
So it means high over-treatment for young women for no benefit.
So it's as easy as women using the Delphi Screener or other HPV self test at age 30 (or the invasive test taken by a doctor) and the roughly 5% who are HPV+ should be offered a 5 yearly pap test. All of the "confusion" and excess is not about our health, but more about justifying and preserving the business model that suits so many, but it's a lousy deal for women. Keeping real information from women means keeping women in the dark is easy and ignoring informed consent and even consent itself means they can capture a lot of women. (forget about ethics and the law)
I'm convinced women will have to take matters into their own hands, demand something better, vested interests will do all they can to keep their businesses sound, they couldn't care less about us or our health.
I do know that doctors back off quickly when they're faced with an informed woman, I've also, found some GPs have a poor understanding of cervical and breast cancer screening, they seem to rely on the official discourse and just follow the program. (they're also, rewarded for doing so with target payments for pap testing)
Once informed, you're safe, and can make informed decisions about testing.
So in summary 95% of women aged 30 to 60 are having unnecessary pap testing, they'd be HPV- (if they tested)
AND we shouldn't be testing women under 30.
That's a LOT of unnecessary pap testing and a lot of colposcopy, excess biopsies and over-treatment that could be avoided, easily avoided.
We also, know that women find colposcopy, biopsy and treatments very stressful, there is a Nordic Cochrane study that talks about the high stress associated with these procedures. (as if we needed a study to know these things are stressful!)
Hi. I think some of you here are friends from 'womenseyesonly' I am making it my business over the week to go on every forum I can find to alert woman to this scam. I put a post on the NHS offical website and within hours I got a not to say they had taken it off!!!! I have put another toned down version of it on this morning hopefully that will pass there criteria.
Censorship has always been a feature of this program, but the last 5 years things have changed and more of my posts stay in place. I think they know the old tactics to silence critical discussion no longer work, word is out, more women are informed, screening rates are falling and more women are demanding something better or sourcing better options themselves...that must be a huge worry to those who protect these programs. Most of their tactics only work if women have no clue of the evidence and don't understand their rights.
Perhaps, it's time they started protecting and respecting women, wouldn't that be a nice change?
Thanks ladies for such helpful factual information. This is shameful on the part of the NHS. I'm in pain about 7-8 weeks since a cervical screen and am in my 30s. It hurt a lot at the time and I took codiene for several days after (paracetamol was no help). It eventually eased only to return during my last period and still hurts o er a week later. I'm not sure what to do - give it more time to settle or return to medics that I don't trust?!
I think now is a good time to contact politicians, with the general election coming up in May. They all have web sites and contact pages online. Search the Hansard online or parliament.uk for who has spoken up recently for smear tests. Most of them are under the impression that women are gagging for more screening, due to the recent media campaigns by some misinformed members of the public who believe the smear itself is a cure for cancer. Note the NHS stays very quiet on informing the public of the medical evidence. Don't want to see a drop in screening attendances, after all, do they....
Some MP's think screening is a sure vote winner amongst the female electorate. It is important we speak up and let them know how we feel. I've had several leaflets through the door already and health and rapid cancer diagnosis is high on the agenda. It is important we let them know that we want evidence based actual fugures, not scaremongering percentages. We also want informed choice and an informed role in decision making about our health. We want to go to our GP's to discuss what WE have come about, not what boxes THEY want to tick off with us. This is our appointment, not theirs. Women want honest, real information, not the paternalistic, 1950's "Woman's Weekly" style preaching the doctors give out on this site.
Jo, I've spoken to quite a few women over the years who've suffered pain and bleeding for a few days, and even weeks, after a pap test, especially one performed by a rough and uncaring (or incompetent) person. It makes me furious that so many women are negatively affected by this testing when ALMOST all women are HPV- and cannot benefit from pap testing. Heads should roll.
To think screening for an always-rare cancer has led to such widespread harm and distress. (and fabulous profits for vested interests)
I hope things settle down shortly for you. I'd urge you to do some reading and make an informed decision about further screening. You can even test yourself for HPV easily and reliably, there's a 95% chance you're HPV- and not at risk of cc and cannot benefit from pap testing...not that any doctor will tell you that.
The best decision I ever made was to do my own research, make an informed decision and stand firm in the consult room (and doctor shop, I found a decent and respectful doctor), I've just turned 57 and have never had a pap test. MOST women my age who joined the program have had something "done" to their cervix, such is the madness of this testing. (the lifetime risk of cc is 0.65%....less than 1%)
Hi eliz, just been catching up on all the latest hear on this subject, im a bit confused now, just put in how is hpv diagnosed on google and this came up
Traditionally, genital HPV infection has been detected as abnormal cell changes on a Pap smear, a test used primarily to detect cancer of the cervix (the lower part of the uterus or womb) or conditions that may lead to cancer. During a Pap smear, the appearance of cervical cells is evaluated under a microscope
This is giving the impression that the hpv infection is shown as an abnormal cell picked up on the pap test. what was it that that Jade Goody died of from big brother and could she had been spared her life if she had been given the pap test? Im not trying to make things complicated hear but im still confused a bit.
put it down to my foggy menapausal brain! 
Hi Susan
Yes, it's true that some abnormal pap tests are caused by HPV, but many are false positives caused by inflammation (condoms, tampons) hormonal changes (pregnancy, menopause) trauma, (childbirth) being young (young women (under 30) produce the most false positives, the pap test picking up transient and harmless infections or normal changes in the maturing cervix) 1 in 3 pap tests WILL be "abnormal" in women under 25. (the UK stopped testing women under 25)
If a woman wants to screen though, she could simply have a test to determine her HPV status, that's by the HPV test (it's taken in the same way as a pap test) or through self-testing with something like the Delphi Screener or Tampap. We know that HPV- women are not at risk of cc and can't benefit from pap testing, that most women.
Jade Goody had an adenocarcinoma of the cervix, an even rarer form of cc and one usually missed by pap testing. It was disgraceful that her cancer was used to scare women into pap testing, the reality is these women tend to get a "false negative" pap test result so the pap test might actually disadvantage her, falsely reassure, and she might delay seeing a doctor for symptoms and so receive a later diagnosis/poorer prognosis.
Jade Goody also, had a painful and traumatic "treatment" for abnormal cells when she was about 16, I have no idea why a doctor would be pap testing a teenager, that should have been the subject of a formal complaint, and to actually do a procedure on her is horrifying.
The sad fact is pap testing does not prevent these very rare cancers in young women. (HPV testing is not recommended before age 30 either as about 40% would test HPV+, we know almost all will clear the virus naturally within a year or two) It's the roughly 5% who are HPV+ at age 30 that should be offered a pap test.
The Dutch and Finns have never tested women before age 30, these women are advised to see a doctor promptly if they develop symptoms.
There is no doubt in my mind that we'd save more lives and spare huge numbers of women from painful biopsies and damaging treatments if we respected the evidence and informed consent.
I think Jade did have a pap test that was abnormal, but she delayed treatment, hardly surprising when she'd been through that early traumatic experience. I recall she said that she didn't think it could be necessary to have any more treatment because they'd already removed abnormal cells when she was about 16. Without that early experience, she might have seen a doctor promptly when she developed symptoms.
Not one country in the world has shown a benefit doing pap testing on women under 30, despite pap testing, but young women produce the most false positives. So it's risk for no benefit.
So pap testing is a screening test for women with no symptoms designed to detect/prevent squamous cell carcinoma, the more common type of cc (but still fairly rare)
A high grade strain of HPV is necessary as a first step to the future development of cc, MOST women clear HPV in a year or so, but in rare cases these women go on to develop abnormal cells and may go on to invasive cervical cancer. We don't know why this small number of HPV+ women go on to develop cancer, some say HPV+ plus an impaired immune system, some say HPV and smoking, the research continues, but we do know that you must have HPV to be at risk.
Currently women with abnormal pap tests, usually CIN 2 or CIN 3 are "treated"...it's just that most of these women would have cleared the virus and would not have developed cc.
HPV testing is a better test (for those who wish to test) because it identifies the small number of women who are "actually" at risk of cc, those HPV+...these women can then be offered a 5 yearly pap test until they clear the virus or need treatment. This approach means the 95% of women aged 30 to 60 who are HPV- are protected from false positives, excess colposcopy/biopsies and potentially damaging over-treatment.
Population pap testing harms too many women who are not even at risk of cc (HPV-) These women have paid a heavy price with these programs with huge numbers over-treated and harmed after false positive pap tests. Here in Australia thanks to early screening and serious over-screening 77% of women will end up having a colposcopy and biopsy, many end up having "treatments"...the cancer itself has a lifetime risk of 0.65%
We could have spared many of these women from these unnecessary biopsies and treatments with evidence based testing, and now we could take almost all women out of pap testing with HPV primary and self testing (the right way, like the new Dutch program)...these women would then be out of harms way.
Hope that helps...
"Currently women with abnormal pap tests, usually CIN 2 or CIN 3 are "treated"...it's just that most of these women would have cleared the virus and would not have developed cc"
Note this also, includes some women who are HPV- but have produced an abnormal pap test. My younger sister was unlucky enough to produce an abnormal pap test and ended up having an excess cone biopsy, the tissue removed was normal, they suspect that a new brand of tampons had caused inflammation. Naturally, it was a very bad experience, but prompted her to do some research so she could make an informed decision about testing in the future.
Just to clarify doing HPV testing first takes most women OUT of pap testing, you then are left with about 5% of women (aged 30 to 60) who are HPV+, these women should be offered a pap test. The women who are HPV+ and also, produce a CIN 2 or CIN 3 pap test result are those at risk of cc. Using HPV and pap testing is this way means we focus on the small number actually at risk. I imagine HPV+ women who produce a CIN 2 or CIN 3 would be watched closely and would probably be referred for some sort of treatment.