Anybody here who's got to be caught by surprise by sleep

Signs and symptoms
1

Hi,

A chronic insomniac here, suffering from this damned condition on and off since childhood. I am 30 now.

I have a question for other veterans of the condition. I know it sounds strange, but I never feel relaxed enough around sleep. I never tell myself "I feel sleepy, time to go to bed." As a result , it happens quite often that I feel sleepy as hell, especially while watching a movie, but when I turn off the TV or the computer , sleep doesn't come . Either the sleepiness disappears immediately or my mind fights it off. Not with worries about tomorrow or problems with money

/relationships, more like an OCD-type of condition but focused mainly on sleep. As if I'm monitoring myself and keeping check.

This is why I don't find advice like "don't go to bed until you feel sleepy" or "if you can't sleep get up and do something until you feel sleppy again..." particularly useful.

I feel sleepy, that's not the problem. It's the actuall falling asleep that troubles me.

So what I would like to know is - do you have trouble getting sleepy or is it trouble falling asleep.

My problem, as I've mentioned once here before, is so persistent that I don't remember the last time I managed to sleep during the day and at least partially make up for a bad night. Sleeping during the day takes absolute concentration about sleep, overcoming the light and the noise, and ignoring the chores you must do for that day. The only time I can sleep is the night, and even then it very often gets rough.

Fkr instance, last night my wife and I watched a movie , got tired and yawned like crazy, turned off the TV to go to sleep. She went right to sleep while I managed to get UNsleepy (if that's a word), then took a Valium , felt sleepy, felt unsleepy again, took another Valium and finally "disappeared".

Is anyone else here subconsciously focused too much on sleep? How do you relax in spite of that?

Edgar

2

Hi Edgar, before you take any more sleep aids - read about "paradoxical insomnia".  Believe me when I say this - you actually do sleep - you may not realise it because of anxiety and hyper arousal.  Every insomniac sleeps eventually - but some of us have to wait patiently for much of the night as out mind is still awake.  It is caused by anxiety.

Any further questions, just ask. 

Remember - its a manageable condition.  All the best

Matt

3

Thank you, matt.

Yes, I've heard of paradoxical insomnia, I would really like to get a sleep study to have it checked out in my case. It sure doesn't seem as if I sleep at all.

To be more precise, there were times when I could imagine more that I have slept at least a little , but there were more where I didn't.

Manageable ,yes, but really tough.

Thanks for your response, I hope you are a good sleeper.

4

Hi Edgar, if you buy a Fitbit charge 2 it actually comes with a sleep analysis tool.  It will not show how your mind is racing all night, but it will prove that you actually "medically" slept with reduced heart rate and lay still for 30 mins etc.  There is also a great book called "The Sleep Solution" that got me through a very dark time. - I WAS an insomniac for years and really struggled.  Most books are rubbish, but this one will honestly tell you what you need to know. 

A really good tip - if you buy eye patches that keep your eyes closed and refuse to look at a clock it really helps - you no longer track the passing time.  Also try sleeping on the couch/spare room a few times to stop you worrying about disturbing your wife.

Believe me - I was convinced I hardly slept for years.  GPs in the UK simply offer you tablets.  What I needed was specialist advice.

Good luck.

If you have a sleep study, it will simply tell you that you slept more than you thought - it was functional, but your subconscious mind was racing.  You feel awake, but time passes quickly, and you cannot recall what your mind was thinking about.  Its anxiety.

 

5

"You feel awake, but time passes quickly, and you cannot recall what your mind was thinking about.  Its anxiety."  - there are certainly times when this is true, but I'm pretty sure  there are also times when I can't sleep through the whole night. How do I know? Time doesn't pass as quickly, I can hear sounds from the outside and, (what I shouldn't be doing), I grab a piece  of a melatonin pill or a Valium pill little by little all through the night, in hope that that last piece will finally work. But that happens only on the most despearate nights.

matt, you're absolutely right about this possibly being anxiety. That's exactly my dilemma - do I have insomnia or anxiety, or a combination of both, one  feeding off the other. That's why I asked this question on the forum (reading it again, I see I could have explained it better.) I've read that there are people who simply can't get sleepy, so they jump through hoops trying to get drowsy ( get out of bed, read a book, watch TV , the usual advice). The problem happens to me, too, but my predominant problem is that I do get sleepy , exhausted even, but then my mind fights it off. The first kind of problem (can't get sleepy) I would call insomnia, this second one is more probably anxiety.

I will check out the book you mentioned. It's amazing of you to stick around and help people with this problem, I think most people would run and never look back if they got over insomnia (or anxiety).

6

Thanks for that - but remember it comes back from time to time!!  Some people are prone to anxiety or lead stressful lives.  I still have poor nights  

I just know that my body continually produces adenosine, that in the end will exceed tolerable orexin levels and eventually I will sleep/pass out etc. knowing that the body has contingency plans for insomniacs is a BIG help.  I panic a lot less about it now.  Forget all the rubbish on the inter net - you cannot really harm yourself through sleep - but I made myself depressed.  These forums are a big help for people who cannot get answers from doctors - or cannot afford expert help.  - they are a godsend!!

 

7

Yeah , I agree. I don't personally know anyone who has trouble sleeping in any way, so without these forums there wouldn't be anyone who understands what we're going through.

My problems, too, have always come in episodes, in a pattern of a few rough nights followed by about two weeks of good sleep. It's only lately that things sort of escalated, I moved to a new and I suppose less sleep-friendly place and now I never seem to get as much sleep as I want.

You're right about fear being a fuel for insomnia. I started to really panic about sleep when I was in college, after two days of no sleep due to a stressful presentation, but using my own common sense and also with the help of some fellow insomniacs from another forum I learned not to give in to the fear and eventually recovered for the most part.

I say "for the most part" since it's true what they say, once you go through insomnia , you can't really go back completely, you always know in the back of your mind that sleep can be interrupted. Ugh. I envy people who never come to this glorious realisation.

It's good to see a scientific/chemical explanation of why sleep is inevitable in the end. So no matter how much we think we can affect our sleep by overthinking, our bodies are smarter than us. That's a relief.

8

One last thing, are you a shift worker?  If you have to sleep during the day, that can cause circadian disruption BIG time.  I was once prescribed Seroquel at 25mg.  Look it up.  It is addictive despite what gps say but you can get off it after a few months.  It's better for you than Valium.  It knocks you out, and after a few weeks you don't feel quite so drowsy the following day.  I regret taking it, because I now know I can sleep without anti psychotics, but if you can't get sleep onset in daylight that is understandable.  Just be careful driving!  Good luck - and by the way, I had a poor nights sleep last night too!

9

Hi, again,

you had a bad night, too, huh? Well, misery likes company, right?

No, I'm not a shift worker. I think I would die if I was, almost literally! No, my work schedule is regular, 8 a.m. to 16 p.m.. And like I said, most nights I am able to sleep fine, at least I was until I started waking up a 5:30, 6:00 no matter when I went to bed. That is why I would like to be able to nap, especially on the nights when I also have trouble falling asleep. Luckily , those are still rare.

If I had the guts to come clean to my dr, I would ask for a genuine sleeping pill like Ambien , Seroquel, Lunesta etc, but for now I'm sticking to Valium for as long as if works, although I'm pretty sure a sleeping pill would be better. One day I will certainly give up and ask for one of those.

Matt, thanks so much for taking the time to talk. I hope your next night is okay (and many others after it).