Median Lobe Prostate Bladder Blockage Options?!?

So I have a median lobe that acts as a ball valve at the neck of my bladder.

I had no idea for many years what was going on. I even went to the emergency room a couple times.

I was holding 1000 CC's quite often.

One doc wanted to do the church right away. Another doctor taught me how to self catheterize. Another doctor wanted to prescribed Flomax. Doc in Germany wanted to do an ejaculate preserving "EP" TURP.

The median lobe seems to disqualify me for the Urolift. But a doc in Orange County, CA says the Urolift may indeed help me.

I'm young to be going through this. And my wife wants more kids. So I want to have antegrade ("forward shooting!"wink ejaculation.

Can anyone – as they say at the 12-step programs – share any experience, strength and hope with this situation?

Median lobe blocking urine flow. I need surgery but I want regular ejaculation.

Wish I could edit these posts!

Church = TURP!!!!!

I would avoid the HoLEP as it has a 75% surety of RE but it is great for clearing the bladder of any obstructions.

Roger

Like yourself, I was holding 1000 CC's of urine or more, and at the end couldn't urinate without having to push hard with my palm on my bladder (crede manuever). Because of this, ended up with hydronephrosis of both kidneys due to back pressure. I assume you had a kidney ultrasound and they checked for that?

In any event, it was obvious I had to do something, but I was unhappy with the surgical options, and retrograde ejaculation was also a big issue for me. 

I ended up deciding to go on a program of self-catherization, basically to buy me time and wait until maybe a better procedure came along. 

What happened was kind of a surprise both to me and my urolgists. After two years of self-catherization, my bladder has rehabilitated itself to the point where only have to cahterize maybe once per week, as opposed to six times a day when I started. If I am careful with fluid intake, I wouldn't even have to catherize once a week. 

I'm not saying this is what you could expect with self catherization (CIC) but it was my outcome. Also, as a young man, I'm not suggesting CIC as a long term solution because hopefully there will be better surgical options down the pike. But consider it as one option as part of a "watch and wait" strategy, where you are waiting for a surgical procedure better than what is now being offered. 

You mentioned "EP Turp", which I havre started a thread on but it's on "administrative hold" right now since I incuded a web site. Should be released any day now. Actually, EP Turp is new to me, and I just heard about it here, maybe from one of your earlier post. 

I'm in the U.S. and am not aware of anyone who does it. That said, it sounds promising as it seems to have the benefits of TURP without the retrograde ejaculation. The figure the study gives is around 90%, meaning 10% will end up with retrograde ejaculation even with EP Turp. Certainly, much better odds than with regular TURP, or Button Turp, but you and your wife would have to ask yourself can you live with those odds as you want kids. 

If you can't live with those odds, I suppose one back up is to have your sperm frozen before the operation, or simply wait until a procedure comes along that does not have any risk of retro. Several are out now, such as PAE and Urolift, but from reading here I personally would wait if I could, and again, CIC gives you the option to wait while it protects your kidneys by emptying your bladder completely any time you want. 

If you do decide to continue with CIC, let me know as I can offer you some of my experience in that area. 

I would also welcome any information you have on EP Turp, as there doesn't seem to be a lot of info out there even though the study was done ten years ago.

Jim

Hi Chip,

I've got the same problem as you, the median third lobe. I had Prostate Arterial Embolization (PAE) in Nov 2013. at that time they didnt realise I had the median lobe issue. PAE doesnt work anything like so well with a median lobe although it did reduce the prostate size down from 53g to 38g which is actually pretty good if you've got just the normal two lobes. I'm pretty much back to where I was before I had the PAE. I'm due to see the Urologist quite soon to discuss other options which may include Urolift, he's not ruled it out at this stage although he is also talking about a "limited Turp" of just the median lobe as an alternative. Like you I'm avoiding Turp - seems to me the large majority of sexually active men who have had it done seriously regret it afterwards. Fortunately I found what it was like in advance as I took Tamsulosin (Flomax) for a while and that caused retrograde ejaculation until I stopped taking it. I've certainly had some Urologists in the past "playing down"  the seriousness of that particular side effect. They should take Tamsulosin for a while to see what's it feels like! I had one idiot Urologist tell me to "just switch the lights off" I never went to him again after that. I've just had another cystoscopy done to determine the exact size of the median lobe, it's that result I will be discussing with my Urologist shortly. So will see what the recommendation is then...

Hi Chip,  I am resending this post without the link to a video of the Urolift procedure since this site has blocked it.

I also have a medium lobe pressing on my bladder.  My brother’s urologist Dr. Claus Roehrborn in Dallas Texas pioneered the FDA study in the US for this procedure.  He is also the head professor and chairman of the Department of Urology at the University of Texas (South Western).  I have a Urolift scheduled with him in November.  He can do a Urolift  and fix the middle lobe to one of the lateral lobes if the middle lobes does not protrude into the lumen of the the bladder too much.  Or if it does, he can resect (remove) the middle lobe preserving the bladder neck and then do the Urolift, thus preserving  ejaculation.  No sure where you live. 

There is also a Urologist Dr. Peter Chin near Sydney Australia started doing the Urolift procedure in 2005. He is probably the most experienced in the world.  He has successfully done the Urolift to fix the middle lobe to the lateral lobe.  You can google him and go to his website and see a video of the procedure.

 Ufrolift will only work on prostates of 80gm or smaller.  To avoid retrograde ejaculation you need to make sure that your urologist can preserve the bladder neck when doing the Urolift.

Hope this is helpful,   Terry

I'm planning to have the PAE: prostate arterial embolization.  I think it's our best bet.  No sexual side effects.  The 2 docs who've done the most i the US are Dr. Sandeep Bagla in Alexandria, VA and Dr. Ari Isaacson in Chapel Hill, NC.  The 2 pioneers who have done several hundred are Dr. Pisco in Lisbon, Portugal and Dr. Cardinale in Sao Paulo, Brazil.  Good luck!   

Check out the PAE on this site, and others.

Neal

My dear, I am not sure, but one option could be PTE--Prostrate Arterial Emboliztion.

You have to take Trans Rectal USG, and take the report to both, to an Urologist, and an Intervention Radiologist, who has done PTE.

Then you can discuss, and decide.

Never think of TURP, or LASER, if you want to enjoy SEX and have more KIDS. Both of the PROCESSES can go WRONG--has gone wrong for many patitents.

And--- Good LUCK.

Chip I was wondering what tests help you define which part of the prostate is effecting you..like what type of test do doctors do....?

Hi Terry:

Thank you!!! 

I was about to fly to Germany to have an EP TURP with Dr. Alloussi.  

Maybe I will fly to Texas or Australia instead.

Many thanks,

Chip

I have had the camera in the penis.  I have had the camera in the rectum.  And I have had a biopsy of the prostrate tissue.  

The best indicator seems to be the camera in the penis.  Everything is right there on the TV screen. 

Thank you!

Hi Jim:

Here is the email I recently received from Germany:

"dear chip, 

no worries, i totally understand your cautiousness, it is a tough decision, but i hope i can put things straight and out of the way for you.

1. either i will perform the surgery or my boss, who discovered this technique. 

2. success rate hasn't changed, we perform this technique on almost all patients, because it also has a lower adverse events rate, however there are some boundaries reducing the success rate which are size of prostate, location of the enlargement, especially is it more the basis (good) or the apical (bad for success rate) parts of the prostate, the comorbidities of the bladder, that is why we perform urodynamics before surgery.

3. we perform this procedure approx. 200-300 times per year, we are only 2 surgeons which perform this technique. we use laser, as well as bipolary and monopolary resection techniques, also in combination.

our technique is getting very popular in germany, leading universities as well as high volume centers took this techniques in some cases over, also with a increased success rate.

4. yes, we had 2 patients this year from the states. and from a lot of other countries as well.

5. price for everything including all diagnostics, drugs, surgery and hospital stay (app. 4-5 days) will be 15000€.

6. we don't have a waiting list, we can perform the operation within 1-2 weeks.

why american doctors haven't taken over the technique i really don't know, because it doesn't use any new devices, it is just the interdisciplinary knowledge from andrology, sexual medicine, neurourology and surgery.

i'm waiting already  for lecture invitation…just kidding.

i hope i could help you out with some of your questions.

best regards

saladin alloussi"

 

Hi Jim:

I posted some EP TURP info.  But it is awaiting moderator approval.  

I am VERY interested in self-cath.  It scares me.  But I believe it is a worthwhile option.  

Do you have a favorite self-cath catherter?  Do you sit down?  Stand up?  Hold penis at 45 degree angle?  Or would that be 90 degree angle - haha?  How do you keep from getting UTI?  

Thank you VERY much!!!!

Hi Tim:

Sounds like we have a similar situation.  The Flomax has worked for me BUT I have recently had to increase the dosage.  .4 in the morning and .4 at night.  

Side effects?  DIZZINESS!!!!  And of course retrograde ejaculate.  But I can time the Flomax and the sex so I can get antegrade ejaculate.  

Basically sex at night or 9 to 12 hours after taking the Flomax.  After giving the wife the best 3 seconds of her life I then take a Flomax and make a ham sandwich - haha.  

But I am liking the idea of self-cath until I decide what to do.  

But Urolift and Mini Turp are seeming like okay options.  First Urolift.  

PS - I have also noticed what I drink really effects urine flow.  I am a coffee and Diet Coke addict.  The caffeine helps my depression.  But if I drink water all day I can pee easier.  The caffeine really seems to inhibit urine flow.

Hi Chip,

First, thank you very much for the information on EP Turp. It's a procedure I had never heard of nor ever mentioned by my urologist, Fortunately, my self-catherization program (CIC) is going so well, I have the luxury of waiting, an in fact unless I have a regression sympton-wise, I may have achieved similar goals to surgery already. 

For example, my International Sympton Prostate Score (I-PSS) went from 33 (severe) to 9 (mild/moderate) after 2 years of CIC. If you want to know more about the I-PSS scoring, search for my thread entitled

"What Is Your International Prostate Sympton Score?" In fact, I'll bump it up for you later but afraid to provide a link because every time I put a link in a post, it goes to "moderation" and doesn't appear until the next day or so. I also have another thread you should search for (I'll bump it up later as well so you can find it easier) entitled "Self Catherization. An alternative to Turp, Greenlight, HoLEP...?". It was from 7 months ago and covers a lot. 

As to your questions and a general overview -- Yes, I have a favorite catheter after over a dozen of the more popular ones here in the States. I tried everything from red rubber, to vinyl, to a 4 or 5 different hydrophylic ones. 

The one I like best (and it isn't even close) is Coloplast's Speedicath which is a single-use hydrophiic catheter with the coude tip. Coude Tip is very important if you have an enlarged prostate as it helps prevent any snagging as you pass over the prostate.

The size I started with was 14 French (14F) which is the typical starting size for most men. Once I got the technique down, I switched to 12F. As a general rule, you want to use the smallest size catheter that you are able to insert because a smaller diameter translates into less micro trauma. That said, I think if I started at 12F I might have been frustrated since it take slightly more skill since the smaller size means it's more flexible and therefore a little harder to handle, but only initially. I also should add that I have developed an in effect sterile "no touch" procedure where I only touch the plastic funnel end of the catheter and never the catheter itself. For this reason, I can actually do CIC quite quickly (without gloves or hand washing even) since the catheter itself is never touched. But again, this involves a little practice and is much easier with the 14F as opposed to the 12F which I use. 

Basically I unwrap the speedicath at the top, and the nice thing with speedicath is that it's already coated and ready for immediate use by it's pre-packed fluid, so no need to break any packets.

Then I either wash or spray the head of penis and meatus. I have experimented with several different methods from providone iodine wipes to antispectic sprays. 

Now, I gently pull my penis out and up (toward the ceiling) to straighten out the canal and give the catheter a straight shot going down. I do this with my left hand. At the same time I use my leftt thumb and forefinger to  open up the canal by gently pulling the head of the penis out thereby exposing the meatus, but being careful to keep a sterile field by not touching the meatus. Then, with my right hand, I hold the plastic tip of the catheter and basically "dive bomb" (but very slowly) it into the opened ureretha. If I miss and the catheter touches anything but the meatus at the opening of my urethra (maybe one out of 50 times) I throw the catheter away and start over. But if it hits the urethral opening it will stop by itself a mm or so into the canal. Then I gently push the catheter in (again, only holding it by the plastic tip) and as I push it in I change the angle of the penis from straight up to more of a 45 degree (or even less) angle as I navigate through the plumbing and into the bladder. You may find two points of resistance in the process, the second when you push through the bladder neck.

It may sound complicated and time consuming, but the entire process for me, as described, takes less than one minute plus maybe another minute or so for the urine drain. I actually spend less time in the bathroom urinating with the catheter than I did before without the catheter with my on and off dribbling!

But again, the technique as described, is my own personal technique. I believe the stanard instructions have you feed the catheter in by hand which means you should wear gloves and frankly that hydrophillic is very slippery so not sure how easy that would be. 

As for as UTI's go, I had problems the first couple of months due I think to system shock. I therefore highly recommend prophalactive antibiotics for  anyone starting CIC, but unfortunately the stock answer from the doctors is "they aren't necessary". Ha! 

After a while you may develop colonization, which basically means your urine will test positive for bacteria but you will have no symptons. This is normal and OK and you are NOT supposed to to treat this with antibiotics. 

The way to actually avoid a real UTI is with careful technique, whether my "no touch" technique, or by the more standard technique of using gloves, or thorough washing, etc.  The other way is to carefully monitor your bladder and catheter volume, at least in the beginning. 

I've read it expressed two ways. The first is that if you catherize more than 400cc, then you should increase the frequency of CIC to get the catherized volume below 400cc. Or, if you catherize less than 100cc, then you should decrease the frequncy of CIC.

The other method which is more conservative says your bladder shouldn't be holding more than 400cc of urine at any one time. Therefore, assuming you have a natural void just prior to catherization -so let's say your natural void is 150cc, and you then right away do CIC an 300cc comes out. 

Now going by the first formula, everything is good and you continue on your current daily frequency since your catherized volume was under 400cc. But going by the more conservative approach, your total bladder volume was 450cc and therefore if you had been catherizing 3X/day you might up it to 4X/day

In the beginning, I started with the less conservative approach and even then was cathing up to 6 times a day. Later, as my bladder started to regain elasticity, I went to the more conservative approach to keep bladder volume down at all time. 

Now, my average void is 150-250 cc, and my PVR is usually between 50 and 150. And this is without CIC. So, since my total bladder never holds more than 400cc or urine, I was able to stop CIC completely except for every now and then when I might take in too much fluid, too quickly.

Hope I didn't lose you with the details, but you seemed interested in technique. 

And so the important stuff doesn't get lost, I'll again repeat that for someone like yourself CIC has to advantages. First, it can buy you time until a procedure comes along you are 100% comfortable with, as opposed to picking the best of the worst available. And second, if your like me, your bladder may actually rehabilitate itself to the point where you may be able to stop CIC altogether.

Jim 

Just re-reading my "technique" primer, and forgot to mention that when you pull the penis out (a slight tug) to straighten it out and receive the catheter -- once the tip of the catheter is actually touching the meatus at the mouth of the canal, you then "loosen up" your grip (while still holding it straight) to allow the catheter to pass easily.

You might want to ask the good doctor for specific success rates, e.g. what percentage of his patients end up impotent, what percentage end up incontinent (leaking ), what percentage end up with retrograde ejaculation. The numbers may, in fact be low and okay, but you need to know them.

Neal

Hi Terry,

This is a really interesting development with Urolift, seems the median lobe can be fixed with the procedure after all. I'll discuss this with my UK Urolift Urologist when I see him soon.