Menopause and Vitamin D deficiency?

General health and lifestyle
1

I have been going through the menopause for about a year, feeling increasingly unwell, but carrying on, assuming it was just the usual menopause symptoms and 'old age' with achy joints, painful beasts, foggy brain and feeling tired etc. However I started getting other symptoms including tingling/numbness in hands and feet, feeling unsteady, unbelievable fatigue etc and decided to visit the GP.

She did a range of blood tests and all seemed fine apart from Vit D, with a score of 17 (she said it should be at least 25) and has given me 20,000 IU per day for 15 days, and then recommends going onto an 'over the counter' dose thereafter. 

She asked me to return after 4 weeks if my symptoms remain, at which point she will consider HRT or Prozac (for the menopause symptoms). Reading other posts about Vit D recovery, it seems to be a long process though, so I'm not sure if there will be any improvement within the first month.

I am also terrified that it could be something worse, as I've been googling which is sometimes a really stupid thing to do.

Trying not to get bogged down with the emotional side of 'what ifs' and dealing with the menopause, raising 3 kids (eldest at Uni and struggling with anxiety and depression) as well as my Mum passing away just before Christmas, everything seems to have come at once  

Can I ask about these 'muscle and joint aches and pains' associated with Vit D deficiency, do you find its just generalised, or moves to different places different days, or do you find it focuses in very specific areas? (One of the places I'm feeling a pain is specifically in my armpit and upper arm, which is very specific~GP had a good old feel and can't feel any swollen glands etc) 

I guess I am here for a bit of support, wondering if anyone else has got the combination of the Vit D deficiency and menopause together?

2

It might be the vit D - but I'd think a diagnosis of something called polymyalgia rheumatica might be just as likely. Low vit D is often found alongside autoimmune disorders and your other symptoms really do suggest that quite strongly. You have obviously been under an awful lot of stress - and many patients with PMR say they had the same. Many also say they had discomfort in the armpit and upper arm - PMR causes bursitis and it may be that. But I remember my bra rubbing quite a bit - or at least, that was what it felt like.

https://patient.info/forums/discuss/browse/polymyalgia-rheumatica-and-gca-1708

If you follow this link the second post down has links to our "reading list" and websites where you will find a lot of info about PMR so you can look and see what you think.

If it is menopause-triggered though, then hormone adjustment makes for more sense than Prozac since the hormone imbalance is wha causes the symptoms.

 

3

Eileen, Thank you so much for your reply, I have been looking at other vit d threads and you seem to have some great knowledge and suggestions! 

I agree with the HRT option rather than prozac...if only nights sweats were my major worry eh! 

I have been reading about magnesium taking a dip with Vit D supplements, so I'm going to try an epsom salt foot bath today, I think I saw you mention it? 

I'll take a look at your link, thank you. I have read a little about PMR this morning, but I don't really have any major problems with my hips. My right armpit on the other hand feels like its going to explode at the moment! Nothing at all to see, no redness or lumps and bumps, possibly a bit of swelling, but difficult to judge on a menopausal lady who might be 'putting a bit on round the middle!'

Isnt it confusing that SO many ailments can have the same symptoms. Before going to the GP I was convinced I had carpel tunnel and vitb12 def!

Thanks again for your reply, much appreciated! 

4

It isn't uncommon for patients with what in the end turns out to be PMR to present with "frozen shoulder" and many don't have hip problems early either. But basically I think I'm saying - I think the vit D is a sign of something and perhaps not the actual cause. And carpal tunnel is ALSO sometimes a part of PMR - it comes in many guises!

Oh yes - autoimmune is an absolute nightmare to sort out!!! I assume of course you have had your boob checked?

And this is a clear "how to look at it" guide from a reliable source:

https://www.healthline.com/health/armpit-pain#symptoms

5

The GP said she could feel no lumps, infact she was prodding pretty hard but that didn't hurt too much, apart from a brief tingling in my fingers when she must have pressed a nerve in my armpit. Coincidently as I hit 50 last year I have just been sent an appointment for a mammogram screening in a couple of weeks (all happens at once doesnt it!) 

As I'm 50 I would be on the lower end of possible PMR from what I read in your link. The GP did a whole bunch of bloods, thyroid, liver, kidney function, Vit D obviously, and then something I think she said was to look for 'inflammation markers'? (which I am wondering about now as I see 20% come back normal for that, but still have PMR)

Only on my 3rd day of the 20,000iu vit Ds so early days I guess, I'm hoping there will be some improvements at least with that, then with a bit of help, trying to figure out the rest!

Such a bother when its more than one thing going on and figuring out what is causing what, and like you say, anything autoimmune can be difficult to diagnose anyway. 

Currently the only temporary relief I find I can get for my armpit is to lift my arm in the air, the pressure is not quite so great then, but its not a particularly functional position!

6

...also definitely not frozen shoulder, I have full range of movement which causes no pain in itself. And all the bloods I mentioned above came back normal, excluding the vit D low at 17.

 

7

No! Off for that mammogram asap then - and I was 51 when my PMR started. We have patients on the forums who are in their 40s - and there are probably more that GPs haven't recognised because they aren't looking for it in younger patients. Atypical presentations (low markers, funny symptoms etc) are more common amongst younger patients. Tell the mammogram people about the sore armpit of the doctor thinks she is that good - GPs really aren't...

8

Then give the vit D supplementation a chance - and once it has been checked and is acceptable see how you feel in a few months. If you still feell rubbish - push for a referral. Probably to rheumatology as the general impression you give is of autoimmune problems which are way beyond a GP.

Good luck

9

Thank you for your advice Eileen. I have been reading that it is good to take Vitamin K and Magnesium along side Vitamin D, (and possibly potassium too?) do you have any advice about what amount I should be taking of each one to limit the side effects of the Vit D?

Also after my initial 15 days of daily 20,000ui Vit D, GP said I am to get an over the counter amount, but they come in a variety of strengths, I am not sure how much to be taking (ie if it still needs to be a higher therapeutic dose, or a lower maintaining dose) Would you have any recommendation for this too?

I've just looked on Holland and Barretts online, and getting a bit confused with the options and best ones to take. 

Hope you don't mind me asking more advice from you x

 

10

I don't know much about the other supplements. There is a lot of guff to be found about side effects of vit D - few people suffer them but you'll find a few here and that is the nature of forums. You will hear all the people who have problems and few of those of us who have only few...

But a good maintenance dose for vit D would be 2000 IU per day - that is what our local osteoporosis guru recommends and we live in northern Italy, at a latitude that means theoretically we are able to make vit D from sunlight all year round. Obviously we don't - 80% of the population are deficient! But at the end of your course of high dose vit D you DO need your blood level checked. I buy H&B high dose - 1000 IU per tablet I think, they are tiny tablets and easy to take. There is no real mystery really.

11

Eileen thank you!  Yes I also need to think about osteoporosis issues with the onset of menopause too I guess. My Mum suffered quite badly from OP, he spine more or less crumbled with wedge fracture.

I plan to go back after 4 weeks (that will be 3 weeks of 20,000ui a day, and a week of maintenance dose) I will make sure to ask for followup blood test to be done, if the GP doesn't mention it.  I do appreciate your no nonsense replies thank you! 

12

Not just vit D - calcium and magnesium plus vit K2 oo for bone strength. And exercise - we have a lady on the PMR forum who increased her bone density from -2.1 to -1.6 just by diet and exercise using a weighted vest. It can be done.

13

Super thank you Eileen, I'm looking out for magnesium and K2 anyway, so this should help twofold, if I do calcium too x

 

14

I know this is really delayed since you posted 5 months ago. My moms levels are a 6! And she is in menopause. So i have been researching this stuff to help her out. Her doctors suuuucks though. She wanted mom to take just 5,000IU per day. What's that gonna do when you have a level of 6?! Also she told her to take calcium. Those were her two instructions. First off, I found out a lot of doctors tell you to do those two things... with the exception that most doctors probably have you take more than 5,000IU when you are deficient I'm sure. But they say vitamin D and calcium. But those are a bad mix if you are not taking vitamin K. More specific K2. K1 mainly works with blood, but k2 will put the calcium where it needs to go. Also magnesium, take it. The potassium can also be added. It isn't always needed but in this case it doesnt hurt eithet, just dont take large doses unless your doctor approves or maybe if you're daring like. I'll be honest, I only suggest the doctor because nobody wants to be at fault but I am sure you are capable of making your own decisions when it comes to your own health but i do still suggest a doctor when it comes to taking anything at higher doses than recommened. Anyway... k2 you need to take. It is recommended to take 180mcg per day. Some say 100mcg but in the research I've gone through, 180mcg was proven safe and more beneficial. Make sure you eat something when you take your k2 and D. You could also get a mixed combo where it has k2 and k1 because k1 is still good for you and there are some studies that say it could potentially be helpful in a vitamin D deficiency situation, so it doesnt hurt. When you get k2, make absolutely sure it says it is mk-7 or menaquinone-7 (they are the same thing). If it has mk-4 in it, thats ok but it doesnt abosrb as well as mk-7 so you want mk-7. It can sometimes be a pain to find 180mcg but i take k2 for its benefits and i have a bottle with 100mcg and i take 2 of them. I suggest taking your D vitamin in the morning and the K2 at least 8 hours later or just before bed if that makes it easier to remember. But taking them at the same time can cause the k2 to not absorb well. I got my mom 10mg of bioperine which has shown to help a lot of supplements absorb better. It isn't confirmed if it helps with these specific ones but hey, it doesnt hurt. I also got mom 50,000IU of vitamin D and in the research I've done i told her to take 1 of those just 1 time per week and in 6 weeks we will check her levels. She is only 2 weeks in so no benefits yet. I gave her a list of things to watch for because if she has negative side effects i need her to know when to stop taking them.

Back to the supplements in question, sorry I have adhd and im all over the baord but I like to explain things to so this is long... k2 will not only take calcium and put it where it needs to go, but it will also take the calciun from your arteries, joints and anywhere else where it is not suppose to be. So when a doctor tells my mom to take just vitamin D and calcium, where do you think calcium goes when it has nothing to direct it like k2? That is how it ends up in areas it shouldnt be, also it goes to your veins and causes vericose veins. But like i said, supplementing with the k2 will remove calcium from all the wrng places as well as put it in all the correct ones. The only issue with the k2 dosage... doctors are not sure how much to take when you are on high doses of vitamin D. 180mcg is the safe limit but you have to watch for signs of a vitamin k (or k2) deficiency while doing it because a lot of vitamin D will reduce your k2 anyway and cause you to become deficient which is actually why taking vitamin d and calcium (without k2) is notorious for causing heart attacks... there's no k2 left to direct the calcium so your heart gets calcified. The magnesium helps activate vitamin D. So if mom takes just calcium and vitamin D, she has nothing to activate the vitamin D and what little bit that does get activated from magnesium in her diet, it will take the calcium to the arteries, joints, and veins and wherever else you dont want it to be because people do not consume enough k2 in their diets in the mass majority of countries (mainly asian countries get plenty and most other countries do not). Then she will most likely die from a heart attack for all i know. Also, if your under arm hurts for more than a few weeks, you need to get it looked at by an endocrinologist and probably get a scan to ensure it isnt cancer. My lymph nodes swell often but normally the one in the neck does. I had the one in my under arm swell and i flipped out. At first i just thought nothing of it because i know what a swollen lymph node feels like and i actually have iodine problems and hypothyroidism and have been dealing with it since the 3rd grade (I'm 33 so it has been a while). I went to shave my armpit though and i felt the lump. I looked it up online because im very very stubborn about going to the doctors and it said if it hurts and/or if there is a lump for more than a couple weeks, get it checked. Which made sense anyway because when my lymph nodes do swell, the swelling is gone in 2 weeks anyway, so i waited and it went away but all the things that i came across in google of what it could be (mainly the cancer part) had me really worried.

I know it has been 5 months and I hope you already know about everything i just rambled on about. Just take your magnesium and k2 (mk-7) all the time. You could take those for the rest of your life actually, even without the d deficiency. Especially if you live in fricken michigan. Our soil is terrible when it comes to giving food nutrients and it is causing mass loads of vitamin deficiencies. Mainly magnesium and iodine related ones. Most people are magnesium deficient though so just keep taking those two with yout vitamin D.

15

Oh crap.. also, if you are allergic to soy or natto, take the k2 mk-7 made from chickpeas.

16

I assume this may not still be an issue with your under arm. But with my unfortunate experience with lymph nodes being a thorn in my neck and apparently armpit, like i said in my one comment, i noticed the lump when i went to shave my armpit. The pain was obvious a day or two prior but shaving is what gave it away. I am not a bigger person but ive been all over the spectrum at just 5'2" ive gone between 105 pounds and 215 pounds and currently at 140 but i know where the fat likes to go lol... my point though is that really the only way you can feel a lump in an area that is normally fatty even at weights a little lower than my current one, the only way you can tell by yourself without an endocrinologist or a scan or unless it's a clear as day large lump, is by lifting your arm straight up. You said it was your right arm, thats where mine was too back in december when it happened. So, actually lift the left arm straight up above your head and feel around. Apply pressure to get a good feel of how your painless arm feels. Then lift the right one up and do the same. Even a small, yet notable, difference could mean there is indeed some sort of lump. I hope after 5 months that you dont still have this issue though.

17

Thank you for your detailed replies Jillian, what a lovely person you are researching all that for your Mum! I joined a Fb group for 'Vitamin d deficiency UK' shortly after starting this thread. I learnt about magnesium and K2 as co factors and bought the ones they recommended, with no fillers and good ingredients. I had the mamogram and everything was clear from that point of view. I went back to see the GP, as I was feeling like I was getting worse at one point. I got a copy of my blood results and saw a couple of things were over range, but GP said they were fine. My Vit D level increased, but GP thinks I might have fibro so has prescribed a low dose of amirtiptaline. I would say generally I feel like I have improved, but still don't feel like my 'old self' itms. Some days I have more pain than others. I do try and exercise daily, especially if I don't feel well enough to go out. I have a few minutes in a cycle machine lift a couple of tins of beans to exercise my arms. (for a few weeks I felt terrible, I could have stayed all day in bed, and realised I was in a vicious circle with that, so really pushed myself, even if I didnt go out) I have just got back from holiday with the family, which I was dreading as I thought I wouldnt cope well with all the travelling and walking and would spoil it for everyone, but I managed quite well and we went out every day. So, some improvements. I can't believe its been 5 months already, but I knew it was going to be a long road. Even when I have optimal levels I know I need to continue taking it for life.

18

Can I just point out that 5,000 IU per day is 35,000 IU per week. Which is higher than the standard approach where I live - 25,000 IU as a single dose once a week over a few months - and which brought my husband's level up from 7 to 70+ in about 3 months. The evidence is that giving it at this sort of rate achieves a better top up than a single very high dose and with fewer side effects - vit D CAN cause gastric upsets. Your body cannot absorb it all at once and there would be a strong argument that 5,000 IU a day is a steady dose of which almost all will be absorbed. 

19

She took the 5,000IU daily for 4 years and her levels are still deficent. So for her, 5,000 is not enough. This is why i started researching it for her. I didnt just hop on google for this because I know how touchy deficiencies can be from personal and current experience. Ive been fighting a b12 deficiency for 5.5 years and im still deficient as well as an iodine deficiency since the 3rd grade. Ive taken mass doses of both and get shots. 4 years ago my 8 month old son passed away the small progress my body did make wound up relapsing worse than it was before. I know the risks of the dose my mom takes and the side effects to expect if it gets worse, whether that means from further being more deficient or taking to much, i also know it can be done at the dose she takes. The dose she takes is a once weekly dose, not a daily dose. And it is only going to happen for a 6 weeks to avoid an actual overdose from a possible buildup. At the end of it she will have just 6 total doses. I did actual foot work in a lot of this and i never said a word to her about it until i seen how much the benefit of a possibly good outcome would benefit her life. I also know how badly she wants this and how much she struggles from how severe her symptoms are and how her doctor isn't doing a thing about it after these 4 years. I have the luxery of picking and choosing any doctor i want, when I want and for any reason. She doesnt. And knowing her, even if she did she would more than likely still be seeing the same doctor because she finds it to be hopeless because she always had bad luck with doctors never doing more to try and solve the issue at hand. So yeah, I'm mega dosing her, i layed out all the negative potential effects she could get and i made sure i emphasized the worst possible outcomes and that she is reminded weekly when i maket a point to ask her each week on the day she takes her dose, how she is doing and feeling. I get a hold of her daily though to make sure she took her daily cofactors for the vitamin D too. If I could, I would fly down there and babysit her over these 6 weeks to make sure because I worry about her. There is also quite a bit of research on taking the dose she takes and taking it just as often as she dose that has benefited the test subjects. There is research for up to twice the amount she takes and they took it more often in some cases, that also wound up benefiting the subjects. With her last test coming back at a 6, she's had it with the way her doctor is doing it and I've had enough of her suffering because they want to just stick with the same exact dose over a 5 year period. Certain other and more personal aspects of her life come into play with why she choose to do it this way and why this way she feels that any negative effects are worth the risk to have a chance at possibly feeling better. I only laid it out in front of her.

20

I wasn't suggesting you were wrong about anything - just that 5,000 IU would be adequate for 99% of patients. There is still the factor of absorption though - and even the very high dose won't work well if she has malabsorption problems. The 50,000 IU a week for 8 weeks is the recommended approach in the UK. But they do also suggest longer at a slightly lower dose. I do hope this approach works for your mother.

I'm so sorry to hear of the loss of your baby - that must have been terrible.