PIP and motability

General health and lifestyle
1

Is the 20m rule for enhanced PIP going to be "seriously" debated?

As I still get full mobility DLA I am in the process of replacing my car at the 3 year lease end.

What an absolutte shambles in the motor trade. I can appreciate that if 10 different customers turned up at a mobility car showroom then they would not find 10 different models of

the same car-fair enough.

I have made appointments with several dealers, however my worst experience was a main dealer in Aldershott, Hants. The disability parking bays are as close to the only entrance as possible, great. Only problem is the mobility desk is about 120 m walk away. When I arrived, breathless and in pain, I mentioned to the salesman that if there was q DWP person witnessing the fact that I walked that distance, they would say I don't deserve mobility.

Funny, your not the first person to say that.Are covert methods being used to test us unknowingly?

2

s the 20m rule for enhanced PIP going to be "seriously" debated?

It may well be debated by well meaning individuals but consider the consequences if it did revert to 50m?

It would make a mockery of PIP which was soley brought out to reduce expenditure for a start.

It would make the public consultation that was held when the 20m rule was put in place a waste of time and money.

As I have said they may talk about it and even might set up a working group to look at it which will report back to the government in say 10 years.

No it will not change - If it did the press would have a field day as it would be one of the biggest U turns of this government and all credibility would be lost with the Welfare Reforn Programme. Number 10 can't afford for

it to happen.

3

Hardly covert when you park in a disabled bay and can somehow walk right through a car show. There cctv alone could have you on camera!

4

The op managed to walk 120m when looking for a new car. Even by my maths, that's a lot more!!!! Never ceases to amaze me what some people post on a very open forum where ANYONE can see it. Claim they can't do this when they can and then write and tell everyone.

5

Vickylou,

I said that after walking 120m, I did not say after walking non stop 120m, that I arrived at the mobility desk breathless and in pain, I was visibly shaken and had to rest for several minutes before being able to converse. It just upsets me when obstacles are put in your way without good need. If a disability bay is near the entrance then it would nice if the disability desk is near it to.

6

Hi Mike

The trouble is managing the 120m even with breaks could be enough for a HCP to form an opinion you don't meet the descriptor. It is a very grey area.

7

Hi mike09523. Not having a go, but did you use walking stick to do the 240mtrs? ( you had to get back, of course ) 120><120. They pretty marvelouse things! acording to my HCP report. In fact they added 150mtrs to my walking distance because i aquired one. 

8

Hi All,

It seems therefore, that, all disabled motability customers that use this particular car dealer in Aldershot must, by all your opinions, turn up in wheelchairs. I do use a walking stick, I do shuffle along, and I did walk there and back, totalling 240m. However, although it is a grey area there is no other way that I could have got from the disability parking bay to the disability check in desk.

Therefore, if the DWP were to look at all the cctv of this dealer they would use that as evidence that only wheelchair users should get the higher mobility rate.

I cannot find any discriptors that insist only the non walking disabled can have the higher rate.

9

Hi Mike

At the moment you are claiming DLA where the qualifying criteria is very different to PIP. Under DLA you were entitled to higher mobility if within 100 meters you began to suffer with extreme pain which rendered you ‘virtually unable to walk’. The actual amount you could walk from that point is disregarded.

Therefore CCTV cameras etc. are irrelevant as from your description you meet the DLA qualifying criteria.

However, under PIP the criteria are a lot different.

Descriptors Points

a. Can stand and then move more than 200 meters, either aided or unaided. 0 points

b. Can stand and then move more than 50 meters but no more than 200 meters, either aided or unaided 4 points

c. Can stand and then move unaided more than 20 meters but no more than 50 meters. 8 points

d. Can stand and then move using an aid or appliance more than 20 meters but no more than 50 metres.10 points

e. Can stand and then move more than 1 meter but no more than 20 meters, either aided or unaided. 12 points

f. Cannot, either aided or unaided, – 

(i) Stand; or 

(ii) Move more than 1 meter.  12 points

A claimant requires 12 points for enhanced (the old higher under DLA) and 8 points for standard (the old lower under DLA). There is another descriptor ‘planning and following a journey’ which is more related to those with restricted eyesight and mental health issues.

To get 12 points from moving around alone your walking ability is 20 meters maximum. The grey area comes from being able to do it ‘repeatedly and safely’ as set down by the legislation.

However, most HCP’s seem to use the descriptors subjectively and any hint that a claimant can walk 20m will result in a rejection for enhanced mobility

10

Hi anthony97723,

When I posted about my experience, I must admit that I thought others may have commented about simular experiences with difficulties accessing motability car dealers.

However as no one responded to that I am ready to admit that what I should have done, which my wife asked me to do, was to request assisstance from the dealer. That journey of 120mx2 was to.

o difficult for me and in retrospect I should have headed my wifes advise and not been so stubborn.

Mike

11

Hi, was wondering if the grey areas would include " good and bad days " also. They go on about good and bad days, ( we know to catch you out ) but are they thrown into the mix when it comes to give and take with walking distances.? Or is it more related to the other part of PIP?  TA

12

Hence one of the reasons why I gave up my High Mobility DLA when they informed me that it was my turn to transfer over to PIP.

It would have been an impossible task to prove on the balance of probabilities that I could not walk more than 20 metres, with or without my walking aids.

Under the old DLA rules I had a consultants letter from 5 years ago from the vascular unit that said quite clearly that the maximum I could walk (and in pain) was within the DLA guidelines.I was tested on the hospital walking machine which then ended up with Social Services being involved and an OT assessment.

13

Yes good and bad days count (although there are some on this site that condone saying that they only have bad days).

The rule is that you have to show with evidence that over a period of say a year more than 183 days are bad days and less than 182 days are good days - the 50% rule.

14

The fact is that you managed to walk with or without aids more than 20 metres. And you demonstarted that you could carry out the same activity later on.

It doesn't matter what your wife suggested - you felt able to do that journey which would be enough for the DWP to deny you Enhanced Mobility PIP.

That rate of benefit under PIP is only for those that physically cannot walk more than 20 metres and that if they tried to do it, they would be suffering that much afterwards that the any further walking would be almost impossible to do.

Hence why those that need a wheelchair (not choose to have one) are in general the ones that would get the enhanced rate which would qualify for a Motability car.

 

15

What is effectively going on under PIP is taking it back to it's roots - the Mobility Allowance as it was until 1992 when it then became DLA - Mobility.

Under the rules of the old Mobility Allowance you were assessed by a panel and if sucessful were entitled to either a 3 wheel mobility car - or a weekly cash payment to go towards buying your own car.

The rules as to who qualified were extremely harsh. As an example a guy I knew at the time had no legs or arms (Thalidomide sufferer). He had no end of assessments and interviews before he was allowed the benefit. He purchased a new Mk 2 Ford Escort with the help of the benefit - the car was extremely and heavily converted for him to use. 

So we have the rules that applied pre 1992 being applied once again under PIP. 

DLA from 1992 until 2013 was by the end of it's life so abused that things had to change. This abuse was mainly caused by claimant's, with the help of the court system, to expand on what was the original intention. We had people with simple arthritis being awarded High Mobility DLA whereas under the old Mobility Allowance rules it would never have been allowed - in fact people would never have dreamed to want to claim it as they knew that the benefit was only for the most seriously disabled

16

Hi, ye the old bubble car. Do you think they should be brought back for mobility. Don"t know where you would put the wheel chair mind.  ta.

17

Hi les99996,

Back in 1972 I worked alongside such a claimant. I remember how pleased he was at getting the allowance and he also had to prove that it was needed.

However even though he walked with leg irons and struggled he had to walk up three flights of stairs, several times a day to get to his workbench. He wouldnot qualify today neither.

Mike

18

Uummm, certainly not - the 'plastic pigs' were a death machine!!

No but the way Mobility Allowance was set up only saw the most disabled able to access it. Besides which it was a different world back then, now it's grab what you can when you can attitude.

In substitution, there are many cheap basic cars out there that would suit most if Motability had the guts to say enough is enough. it wasn't that long ago that you could get ANY car on the Motability scheme as long as you put enough deposit down.

A friend acquired a Range Rover - RRP £105,000 a few years back with the intention of buying it when the lease came up for renewal.

Even after allowing for the deposit and DLA payments over the three years he managed to save over 20% off the used price he paid for it + he was the only owner from new.

Maybe using the old Mobility Allowance claim criteria is a good thing. Using the cash payments as a contribution towards buying your own car new or secondhand would be a good thing.

As you may gather I am not a fan of DLA really, far too many awards have been made for ridiculous levels of disability. I recently heard that under PIP the courts have decided against a bed or chair being an aid to get dressed. False teeth are now being claimed as an aid in order to consume food!!

19

Oh yes I forgot the leg irons/false legs. My friend had the same equipment strapped to him and he too had stairs to walk up to get to work.

But from memory the criteria was met simply because he WAS extremely disabled and worst of all it affected his social life terribly.

And don't get me going on anxiety & depression as being a disability of the same class.or category. I worked in a high pressure/highly responsible position for years for the government and the only thing that made it possible given my mental health problems was plenty of will power and good medication.IOn one occasion I had to take sick leave as I was locked up for four weeks in a secure pyschiatric unit under section

20

Mental health disability can be just as bad, if not more than physical disability. Some can't even go outside never mind walk 150m to look at a car